I feel you, but teching your deck against other decks is part of deck building. You always trying to find the balance between building up towards your own win condition while not dying to your opponent's.
For some decks, teching is an option. For example, if you're playing Priest, you add Light Bomb (well, I'd have to craft two first, which is 800 dust I'd rather spend on something else). Then you still have to draw it in time, but Shadow Visions at least gives you a decent chance of that. But I was playing a mid-range Warlock and I have not been able to find any tech cards that have a reasonable chance of working. Twisting Nether comes too late, 4-attack minion + Power Overwhelming + Shadowflame requires too many components and won't work if they play Doomsayer the turn before the combo, Corrupting Mist still gives them a turn to attack, which is often lethal.
Also, tech cards are supposed to be soft counters: they give you an edge when you have them at the right time. The naga + giants combo requires a hard counter, since if you don't have a counter in your hand at the right time you just lose. And since the right time is turn 5/6, you need a hard counter in a single card that doesn't cost more than 6 mana; there aren't all that many of those. Or you need to repeatedly stall like Freeze Mage, but that is only an option for Mage. So while there are certainly some options to counter it, there aren't many realistic ones, which severely limits what decks are viable on ladder, even at the middle ranks. Laddering shouldn't be like a boss battle where you build your deck specifically to counter one other deck.
The whole premis of this deck relies on getting 1 specific combo to get a lot of giants out at one time, if this does not happen you will probably get outtempoed
The whole premis of this deck relies on getting 1 specific combo to get a lot of giants out at one time, if this does not happen you will probably get outtempoed
But unless my opponents were extraordinarily lucky, it isn't all that hard to get the combo out in time. I've had several in turn 5 and the latest was turn 7, I think. And it's not like they're completely passive in the turns before; for example Hunter will play King's Elekk, Eaglehorn Bow, Doomsayer to contest your minions. And if you don't succeed in beating them down, you have helped them play more giants, by discounting Molten Giant and Sea Giant.
@dragonsdemesne: The way Naga + Giant are working is not a bug. It is an intended change by Blizz.
And if you thik, the combo is op, then abuse it for yourself to climb on a higher ranks, where the players don't play this combo anymore, beauce this players allready realized how unreliable the combo is. ;)
PS: How do they not have one of their 8-10 giants by turn 5?
Did you even play the deck for yourself? It happens way to often, if you are not Hunter, that you don't draw your Naga + min 1 giant by turn 5.
Blizzard should make a special stream lessons or youtube videos in which they explain the the only way hs should be played is with supa dupa 1000 IQ control/combo homebrewed decks and 30 minutes long match is a minimum time period that proves you're not braindead blah blah something etc.
Naga without giants? How do they not have one of their 8-10 giants by turn 5? And all those other cards aren't going to do anything. If their cost is more than 6, you won't get a turn to play them. Lyra on turn 5 looks pretty stupid when you just take 30 damage next turn.
In at least 2 of those games, my opponent's turn 5 was naga -> 1 giant. My response each time was remove the naga (via SW:D or entomb) and use small taunts to distract the giant while swinging face. In almost every other game, my opponent did not have a naga on turn 5, and since I had taken the board early I kept playing for value while poking face. Versus a turn 5 board flood, which happened to me in 1 game, once again Lightbomb - since you obviously saved the coin for this if you went 2nd because you aren't terribad, right?
As to the cards that "aren't going to do anything", once you have a clear board again you start playing threats which they cannot respond to. Every card I listed in my last post is a strong threat that 90% of these giant decks can't do squat about since they go allin on the naga combo. So yeah, turn 5 Lyra doesn't save you, but if you're playing Lyra on turn 5 against a giants deck you're a moron...turn 9 or 10 Lyra with Radiant Elemental on the board OTOH is pretty great and can get a ton of value.
I'm not arguing that the Naga change wasn't stupid, but I think the claims that this archetype is "ruining wild" are frankly unwarranted.
Nobody is allready playing it anymore (at least on my ranks). I played exactly 50 games today in Wild at rank 7-8 and how many Naga-Giants did I face? ONE! I repeat: ONE!
And I even beaten it (he was a Hunter) with a selfmade Beast-Druid (so even a not high Tier-Deck with no real counter to the giants).
Priest is by far more toxic, doesn't do anythin else than heal and remove your minions from turn 1 to 8. Most of the time not playing even one minion to interact with. x_X
Blizzard should make a special stream lessons or youtube videos in which they explain the the only way hs should be played is with supa dupa 1000 IQ control/combo homebrewed decks and 30 minutes long match is a minimum time period that proves you're not braindead blah blah something etc.
I learned about the Sea Witch change a couple of days ago and figured I'd take a stab with it, but I went with a Dude Pally + Giants deck. From rank 23 to rank 5 over a few days, I saw maybe half a dozen other players using the giants combo (out of 82 matches). I only lost to one of them because I was being out-tempoed and had to use my equality early to stay in the game, so I didn't have an answer for when they managed to pull their combo off.
Won a fair number of games I had outright lost (because the giants package is pretty inconsistent) by Holy Wrath to the face and landing Molten Giant for the win. Though sometimes a 12 cost giant works as well.
From what I've tracked the most common classes I played against: 23% of my matches were against priest, 16% warrior, and 16% druid. The druids I faced were mostly token or jade. With so many priests around it's pretty hard for the giants deck to dominate. From my experience the best bet against Priest is to go all in with your giants on turn 5. If they have Lightbomb, you lose, if they don't you win. If you play slowly against Priest all that happens is they chip away at your giants turn by turn and bleed you out till you lose.
I tried the druid version for 4 matches and it went 50/50 simply because it's a one trick deck.
With the paladin I ended up with a 71% win rate, (65% in the last 20 matches) which was a bit more consistent for me since I had recruits to fall back on if I wasn't able to draw my Sea Witch early enough, and hero powering allowed me to present a constant threat while setting me up for Sea Giants or Mountain Giants without the Sea Witch.
Here's a rank 6 match I had against a Big Priest highlighting the downfalls of giants and the pluses of having a bunch of recruits to fall back on.
Played a bit of a gross mill-rogue giants deck yesterday as priest, got beaten because he milled my Raza.
What I've noticed is that now the wild ladder at around rank 15-10 is lots and lots of pirate warrior, possibly because it does fairly hard counter giants.
The issue really is just that the match-ups are all so polarized... at least for me the enjoyment of Hearthstone is from counter-play, swings backwards and forwards in tempo during the game etc. Not like this.
What I've noticed is that now the wild ladder at around rank 15-10 is lots and lots of pirate warrior, possibly because it does fairly hard counter giants.
The issue really is just that the match-ups are all so polarized... at least for me the enjoyment of Hearthstone is from counter-play, swings backwards and forwards in tempo during the game etc. Not like this.
I'll agree with both parts of this - first that the Wild ladder has a bunch of pirate warrs lurking around, and second that way too many of my matchups feel decided from the mulligan (or even before).
Well, to give a bit of context, I tried a hunter version of this deck the other night. (it required a virgin sacrifice and feeding my balls to the jackals) I don't know where Ben Brode is getting a 50% winrate from, but my hunter version was more like about 65%, which is frankly lower than I thought it was going to be. It only loses to hyper aggro, some bad draws, and paladins that run equality. (and the mirror half the time, I guess, but so does everything)
I just tried a Naga Giants deck to see what the big deal was. I gotta say it just does not feel like an intentional interaction. It really feels bugged and that I'm cheating the system even though it's very much designed that way. I'll take my damn wins though.
Well, to give a bit of context, I tried a hunter version of this deck the other night. (it required a virgin sacrifice and feeding my balls to the jackals) I don't know where Ben Brode is getting a 50% winrate from, but my hunter version was more like about 65%, which is frankly lower than I thought it was going to be. It only loses to hyper aggro, some bad draws, and paladins that run equality. (and the mirror half the time, I guess, but so does everything)
Brawl, Nova + Doomsayer, Lightbomb (if the giants can't come out until turn 6, Tarim (also for delayed giants.
If you can take out both Naga Sea Witches, all that the deck is left with is a bunch of giants that are difficult to play... assuming that both waves left them with any giants at all.
Although I don´t play wild, I´ve seen a lot of games and there are a big highroll wich. If you don´t get Witch to turn 5, you have a bunch of unplayable cards, and there are not Jade Druid, if you manage to kill the giants, thehere´s no resummonin them. Also there are counter for the swarm of giants:
I am sure there are a big pain, but if you are sure when they make the big play and you have the answer, they will have nothing else and should be an easy win.
The whole premis of this deck relies on getting 1 specific combo to get a lot of giants out at one time, if this does not happen you will probably get outtempoed
@dragonsdemesne: The way Naga + Giant are working is not a bug. It is an intended change by Blizz.
And if you thik, the combo is op, then abuse it for yourself to climb on a higher ranks, where the players don't play this combo anymore, beauce this players allready realized how unreliable the combo is. ;)
Did you even play the deck for yourself? It happens way to often, if you are not Hunter, that you don't draw your Naga + min 1 giant by turn 5.
(>'o')>
(^'0'^)
<('o'<)
Personal Update how "op" this combo is:
Nobody is allready playing it anymore (at least on my ranks). I played exactly 50 games today in Wild at rank 7-8 and how many Naga-Giants did I face? ONE! I repeat: ONE!
And I even beaten it (he was a Hunter) with a selfmade Beast-Druid (so even a not high Tier-Deck with no real counter to the giants).
Priest is by far more toxic, doesn't do anythin else than heal and remove your minions from turn 1 to 8. Most of the time not playing even one minion to interact with. x_X
So, where do you find all these Giant decks.
I've seen it like 2 times this season so far, and won both games.
The change itself, however, makes zero sense.
Kobolds are almost as bad as goblins, they gotta die (⌐■_■)–︻╦╤─
I learned about the Sea Witch change a couple of days ago and figured I'd take a stab with it, but I went with a Dude Pally + Giants deck. From rank 23 to rank 5 over a few days, I saw maybe half a dozen other players using the giants combo (out of 82 matches). I only lost to one of them because I was being out-tempoed and had to use my equality early to stay in the game, so I didn't have an answer for when they managed to pull their combo off.
Won a fair number of games I had outright lost (because the giants package is pretty inconsistent) by Holy Wrath to the face and landing Molten Giant for the win. Though sometimes a 12 cost giant works as well.
From what I've tracked the most common classes I played against: 23% of my matches were against priest, 16% warrior, and 16% druid. The druids I faced were mostly token or jade. With so many priests around it's pretty hard for the giants deck to dominate. From my experience the best bet against Priest is to go all in with your giants on turn 5. If they have Lightbomb, you lose, if they don't you win. If you play slowly against Priest all that happens is they chip away at your giants turn by turn and bleed you out till you lose.
I tried the druid version for 4 matches and it went 50/50 simply because it's a one trick deck.
With the paladin I ended up with a 71% win rate, (65% in the last 20 matches) which was a bit more consistent for me since I had recruits to fall back on if I wasn't able to draw my Sea Witch early enough, and hero powering allowed me to present a constant threat while setting me up for Sea Giants or Mountain Giants without the Sea Witch.
Here's a rank 6 match I had against a Big Priest highlighting the downfalls of giants and the pluses of having a bunch of recruits to fall back on.
https://hsreplay.net/replay/Ca7FaXcnkeSt6YWUWSSAJC
Played a bit of a gross mill-rogue giants deck yesterday as priest, got beaten because he milled my Raza.
What I've noticed is that now the wild ladder at around rank 15-10 is lots and lots of pirate warrior, possibly because it does fairly hard counter giants.
The issue really is just that the match-ups are all so polarized... at least for me the enjoyment of Hearthstone is from counter-play, swings backwards and forwards in tempo during the game etc. Not like this.
Ibn Fahd.
(>'o')>
(^'0'^)
<('o'<)
Well, to give a bit of context, I tried a hunter version of this deck the other night. (it required a virgin sacrifice and feeding my balls to the jackals) I don't know where Ben Brode is getting a 50% winrate from, but my hunter version was more like about 65%, which is frankly lower than I thought it was going to be. It only loses to hyper aggro, some bad draws, and paladins that run equality. (and the mirror half the time, I guess, but so does everything)
Honestly guys. I've seen this deck once, and I pretty much only play wild. It just seems like a dumb gimmick.
(V) (;,,;) (V)
I just tried a Naga Giants deck to see what the big deal was. I gotta say it just does not feel like an intentional interaction. It really feels bugged and that I'm cheating the system even though it's very much designed that way. I'll take my damn wins though.
It's unbelievable how Blizzard let this keep happen.
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You forgot the classic turn 4 Wild Pyromancer + Equality.
If you can take out both Naga Sea Witches, all that the deck is left with is a bunch of giants that are difficult to play... assuming that both waves left them with any giants at all.
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Although I don´t play wild, I´ve seen a lot of games and there are a big highroll wich. If you don´t get Witch to turn 5, you have a bunch of unplayable cards, and there are not Jade Druid, if you manage to kill the giants, thehere´s no resummonin them. Also there are counter for the swarm of giants:
Paladin: Equality + Wild Pyromancer/Consecration
Warrior: Brawl
Druid: Poison Seeds
Rogue: Vanish and/or Valeera the Hollow (Live for one turn more)
Hunter: Deathstalker Rexxar if you manage to combine and AoE beast (Dreadscale or Exploding Bloatbat) and something with Poisonous.
Priest: Lightbomb or Shadowreaper Anduin if you get to turn 8
Mage: your good old Frost Nova + Doomsayer
Warlock: Twisting Nether if you get to turn 8.
I am sure there are a big pain, but if you are sure when they make the big play and you have the answer, they will have nothing else and should be an easy win.
Not to mention Doomsayer + taunt = ROFLBOOM
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