So before you get up in arms again with your "NeRfs 1 wEeK iNtO tHe ExPanSi0n, HhhhHHhHHhh", this is not a salt-thread about cards that I want nerfed because I lost to them once, it's not even about cards that I personally want to see nerfed at all. View this as some sort of a prediction thread, based on Blizzard's previous decisions to nerf/HoF Classic and BAsic cards.
Anyways, here goes:
Druid:
Reigning Champion of "Nerf Target". Doesn't look like that's going to stop anytime soon.
History: So this one had it coming for a while. Back in the day of...GvG I think there used to be a very oppressive Druid deck, dubbed "Combo Druid" (nowadays that doesn't say much, but back in the day it was the only one). Basically it used a pre-nerf Force of Nature (used to cost 6 and spawn trants with charge that died at the end of the turn) to burst down opponents after playing a midrangey playstyle trying to chip away at your opponents health. This deck got kinda out of hand after Emperor Thaurissan was released, which allowed for...a lot of damage from hand...very fast...with very little counterplay. The deck was so powerful that not only FoN got nerfed but also Keeper of the Grove and Ancient of Lore (come to think about it, Druid has gotten nerfed A LOT)
After Combo Druid was sufficiently murdered Savage Roar disappeared for a time until the Old Gods came around and the first true Token Druid was spawned. To be fair, at that time Yogg Saron, Hope's End carried the entire Druid class (and a few others...bad times, trying not to think about it).
After Yogg was gutted, the Roar vanished once again only to resurface with Aggro Druid, which wasn't necessarily OP, but also really REALLY frustrating to play against, precisely because of the ever looming threat of getting bursted by a bunch of PIrates and Saplings....on turn 3.
The next major appearane was during RR, before the Druid nerfs, when the class was basically able to do whatever it wanted. Token Druid was actually the strongest Druid deck at the time, mainly because of it's wincondition: Wispering Woods + Soul of the Forest which basically made it come down to: can my opponent clear the board twice in a turn? If yes: you lose, if no: you win.
Finally we're in the present where TOken Druid rules once again, and guess what's REAAAALLLY annoying again.
So for those who haven'T it figured out yet: Savage Roar causes some really polarizing situations: It basically forces your opponent to clear your board every turn or else they risk being bursted from 30 to anywhere between almost dead and very dead.
The Problem: Now by itself, having a win condition isn't really anything terribly broken. The problem arises when Druid gets to build and rebuild a full board too easily....which is precisely the case right now. Now of course you could just target all the token generators, but to be honest, I feel like Token Druid is actually a really cool archetype that fits well with the Druid fantasy of regrowth and nature...but Savage Roar turns it all into a game of "if you don't have enough boardclears or kill me quickly....you will hurt...a lot" and I think that's just not fun on either side (it's a little fun for the Druids)
For those who are going to bring up Bloodlust: not only is it much more expensive, but also in class which has far less options to refill the board efficiently, which is precisely the point: Huge Burst by board is a fine win condition as long as....there's an actual condition, instead of complete inevitability
The Solution: This is actually a bit difficult. Back in the day people proposed that Savage Roar should only buff Beasts, which, back then, was a reasonable solution since Druid actually played....beasts (sometimes....it was a work in progress). Obviously this really wouldn't be a reasonable solution nowadays
The other option would just be the classic "hit the mana cost". Getting it up to 5-mana would make it far less powerful as a tempo play, but the problem of "instant death" remains.
Finally, the actual attack buff could be reduced to 1...which would just make it a worse POwer of the Wild, which would be....a really desperate solution.
In the end there really isn't any solution that actually solves the issue without also destroying the card completely, but I also don't think that Team5 wants to see Token Druid as the definitive best deck against just about any matchup. ´We'll see how it turns out eventually. On a side not: Unnerf my boy,Ancient of Lore. A glorified Arcane Intellect on a 5/5 body for 7-mana is really not that strong and by the gods, Heal Druid could use some love.
Hunter:
Now I have to preface this by saying that Hunter has been my main class since the beginning of the game so anything I talk about here is something I legitimately think is unfair about the class from a player's point of view.
The Problem: I don't think I need to explain why this is stupid. Charge is a dangerous mechanic and Team5 has realized a long time ago that it should only be given TO VERY SPECIFIC MINIONS. That being said, Rhino is ridiculous if you really think about it: 5-mana, give charge to ANY Beast. the last time a minion gave charge to a general group of minions it was nerfed so hard it became the single worst card in the game (yes, Warsong Commander is that bad, it'S literally beyond useless in just about any realistic scenario).
Rhino slipped under the radar for a long time for a few reasons:
1) Midrange Hunter was always just....a thing. It never really ruled the meta until RR (which is where Rhino really shined in combination with Timber Wolf and Scavenging Hyena
2) It's kind of a bad card on its own and hard to just play outright on turn 5...at least it was until Hunter got so many (admittedly really fun) tools which just make it that much better.
The Solution: Anyway I look at it, it needs to go. As an absolute Hunter main, this card needs to burn and die. I have no actual idea how to do it, but it's pretty much the only card in the game I want to see Warsong'd...and I actually still vehemently disagree how that card was handled. The only way I could see it keeping its current effect is if it was bumped up to like 9-mana....without a stat buff.
History: Nothing much to say about the card other than it has been a staple in just about every HUnter deck ever. This in itself is not a problem. It's iconic, it's decent....it's also frustratingly random.
The Problem: I'll admit, this is very much a personal problem that most people probably won't share, but...I just hate how random it is. I hate that it's basically "3 overstatted 3-drops, one of which will fit your current situation perfectly while the rest are either useless or irrelevant" Need lethal? 1/3 chance, need a solid 3-drop? 1/3 chance, need to clear with Hounds? 1/3 chance. It just feels really cheap to highroll with and even worse to not hit what you need and just straight up lose.
The Solution: To be fair, there is no real "problem" to solve, but rather a nice QoL change for Hunter in general: Make it 4-mana and a Discover effect. Instead of a random overstatted 3-drop you get a slightly understatte 4-drop that comes with great flexibility...essentially Wardruid Loti for Hunter. I don't think Team5 will ever consider anything of the sort, but It's still something I thought of bringing up. I just don't like unnecessary RNG.
The Problem: Now this one's a bit different. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with Hyena on a basic level. It gets very dangerous with Tundra Rhino, which, as we have established, is an abomination that needs to be eradicated, but by itself it's really not all that scary. Ofc it can get very big very quickly, but that kind of requires people playing straight into it.
That being said I belive this card is at least on a Blizzard's watchlist, especially since they keep pushing a "1-drop" archetype in Hunter and Hyena works very well with cheap beasts, as I'M sure most of you have experienced.
The Solution: There are two ways to neuter the Hyena if it's ever truly necessary
the soft one: make the buff only a +1/+1. Still scales hard and becomes hard to deal with, doesn't nearly hit as hard if you can't reasonably deal with it the turn it'S played.
the hard one: leave the attack buff at +2 and remove the health buff entirely. HIts hard as a truck, but folds like paper. This would effectively make the card useless outside of Rhino combos which hopefully won't be around for much longer.
Priest
People love them, People hate them. Fact is, they have the worst Classic set in the game...but there's still a problem
The Problem: This is both Priest's biggest strength and their greatest enemy. We all know the story: Leave a big health minion up for a turn and you're gonna get punched by an even bigger minion the following turn. Taunts don't matter because Mass Dispel.
this means that as long as Divine Spirit exists, Priest can never be allowed to get a deck that can actually reasonably establish and maintain a board, because, much like with Druid and Savage Roar: a consistent board means instant death with little counterplay. As such Priest will always get sucky draw and sucky board clears...until they don't....and then Wall Priest happens and nobody wants that. It's pretty much the definition of design-imiting.
At the same time it's pretty much the only genuine win condition that Priest has (also the reason why Inner Fire Priest always ends up as the go-to deck at the start of each rotation)
The Solution: I really don't know. Probably something along the line of making it a flat health buff (2-mana +5 maybe?). Could always just increase the mana cost by 2 or 3, but at the end it would either just end up useless or still the same problem (but worse)
the hardest part about this is that Priest just wouldn't have any deck left to play if you did this mid-expansion. Before Spirit can get nerfed Priest actually needs a solid gameplan...and no, Prophet Velen doesn't cut it and eve if he did, it would be a terrible time for everyone else
Not gonna say much about this since BLizz has already mentioned they're keeping an eye on it. I personally don't see the problem with the card by itself even with Malygos and Velen existing. The Problem comes from Priest being unable to get mana-cheat cards because of it (the fallout of which we'Ve seen last expansion) and also that a 2-mana sm0rc card just doesn't feel very...Priest. If Blizzard decides that Mindblast needs to go eventually I won't be surprised, but for the love of god, give Priest SOMETHING to do instead of just clearing boards, healing stuff and stealing cards. You already have the ressurect theme, can't that just be about resummoning midrange boards instead of OTK setup?
The Problem: I think everyone is familiar. Prep makes spells really good, therefore Rogue isn't allowed to get spells that are too good. Nerfing Prep would basically invalidate a lot of staples in Rogue, but it also prevents reasonably priced spells to be printed.
The Solution: There is no solution.
Nerfing it doesn't accomplish much (at best you could make it a 1-cost spell that reduces by 4, to emphasize it'S use on big spells and giving it a limit to its use (can't just be used as a "free" spell). Honestly, now that I type it out, this seems like the "fairest" solution to a crazy powerful spell, but at the same time it still only nerfs the tempo aspect of the card, not the fact that all ROgue spells need to be designed with Prep in mind
Other than that, there's only the Hall of Fame which would really cripple Rogue in Standard unless all other high-cost spells were to be buffed as compensation, which then would lead to Rogue being way stronger in Wild...which is also not ideal. Either way, I can't think of any good solution, but I really don't like the idea of Rogue not being able to get impactful big spells that are also playable without Prep.
Warrior
and they would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for those meddling bombs.
The Problem: so the last time I brought this up a lot of people got very triggered. Since then I've reconsidered a lot. My original point about this card was that it was too efficient of a boardclear in class that's already packed with removal, which wasn't a problem until Control Warrior got a bunch of extremely efficient value generators and win conditions shoved up its bum.
Warrior is the best Control class, no contest. this is not a problem. The problem arises when Control Warrior gets a good win condition. This now exists with Bomb Warrior. This problem gets even more complicated when you add an infinite value generator (even an inconsistent one like Mad Genius) and a powerful tempo play (Blastmaster). Basically Warrior has always been really good at beating just about everyone in the control game, with the inherent weakness of not really having an inherent lategame win condition (neither value nor finisher...at least not after Alex + Grom fell out of favour). Now they have it and it's highlighting a few issues. One of these issues is Brawl, which is just incredibly efficient and becomes even more efficient when surviving has an actual goal to work towards instead of just trying to grind out your opponent.
But all of that just relates to the current state of Warrior. In fact, Brawl has a far bigger problem regardless of the meta:
Brawl is just the best AoE removal that Warrior has...maybe even the best in the game (next to PSychic Scream). The Problem is that Control Warrior will never EVER have any reason to run anything other than Brawl....which basically eliminates really cool build arounds from ever seeing play. Take Deadly Arsenal for instance. It's not a bad card at all, but it requires buildaround to be efficient....but with Brawl there is no reason to ever even consider it. There's just no AoE removal that competes with Brawl so it will always be THE card to run in Ctrl WArrior....and while I personally don't view that as much of a problem (I just think it's kinda boring) BLizzard has shown over and voer that they really don't like auto-includes in their Classic and BAsic sets. As such, there is a pretty good chance they'll eventually target Brawl, regardless of whether Warrior remains a problem or not.
Finally, there'S the RNG factor. As I said before, I don't like unnecessary RNG...and I like game-swinging RNG effects on cards with no build around even less. Effectively, the outcome of Brawl often determines the outcome of the game....and when it usually feels really bad for whoever receives the short end of the stick.
The Solution: Initially I was going for a mana increase to around 6 or 7. Lately I've been moving away from that idea. I realized that, even with all the incredibly efficient and sometimes downright busted removal Warrrior has access to, Brawl is still essential for them to deal with early aggression, especially after they can't rely on Fiery War Axe anymore.
So instead I'm doubling down on the change I also briefly touched on in that one other post that people took issue with: Remove the RNG from Brawl by always having the minion with the highest attack survive.
This has two effects:
It makes Brawl less unpredictable, overall less frustrating and most of all...more situational. NO more clutch 50/50s to remove a MOuntaint Giant. Now you actually have to use Execute....LIKE IT WAS INTENDED TO. NO more playing a single minion to hope for RNGsus to suck you off and give you a full clear + tempo. Instead, just like in a real Brawl, the one who hits the hardest wins. This also allows minion-focussed decks to legitimately play aorund Brawl instead of having to hope for RNG to not fuck them completely. At the same time it would make Brawl less optimal in some situation and warrant the inclusion of different board clears.
UNfortunately, if Blizz ever targets Brawl, I don't think they'll take this solution and instead will just opt for a standard mana nerf. In any case, I don't think any nerf to Brawl would kill Ctrl Warrior completely...just make it less all around powerful and give options to print more legitimate win condition...or just play Bomb Warrior for the time being and rake in wins anyways.
Neutrals
Just a few miscreants that you should probably keep your extra copies of
The Problem: This is ....a problem, but not necessarily by itself. Mountain Giant always ends up being abused when any deck can justify drawing lots of cards early. Evenlock did that very well and often won games because of it. Now Mage is doing it even better thanks to Conjurer's Calling (although it's really the fault of the spell here).
The problem is that Mountain Giant's design contradicts the basic philosophy. If any class is able to summon a large minion early in the game it should have a counter. Mountain Giant has nothing of the sort. it can't be silenced, it can't be played aorund (like Scavenging Hyena could)....and the thing is...not every class has access to low-cost removal. Hunter does, Warrior does, Mage does. Druid does not and neither does Warlock.
Basically in some matchups MG can be dealt with, but the ones in which he can't are effectively unwinnable if he comes down on curve. It's a polarizing card that keeps getting abused everytime a class can consistently draw cards early on.
The Solution: I don't think MG will ever get nerfed to be honest. There's just no real way. If you increase its mana cost it just becomes....pointless? It probably will just end up being Hall of Famed somewhere down the line...maybe even next year if Conjurer's Calling doesn't get nerfed
nothing much to say about it to be honest. It's a charger, and an efficient one at that. not that I personally want him gone, but knowing Blizzard he's gonna enter the Hall of Fame somewhere down the line...at least once they decide that aggro finishers should be class specific.
Once again...BLizzard has already talked about this one. It limits design space, and it has created some gross decks over its lifespan. My biggest gripe is the fact that it just kind of...excludes more interesting combo decks. Take Gonk the Raptor for example. Could easily be a playable combo deck (well, not now, because Druid'S defenses are ass, but there's always the future) but there's just no reason to ever play a Gonk deck as long as you can just play Malygos.
Same problem as Malygos in a way. It's a neutral combo enabler that will always restrict how much damage you can reasonably allow a class to have access to. Hall of Fame candidate as well.
Conclusion
This took way longer than I expected. NOt even sure I made entirely coherent points.
Either way, I wanted to get this off my mind. I'm not here to argue on whether I'm right or wrong, this is mostly an observation and a bit of prediction.
That being said, I'm still open to discussion. If you have any cards to add here I'll be glad to hear you out. If all you have to contribute is "lmao ur idyot, this card is fine because I said so" you're free to do so...but expect me to call you an inept moron who lacks basic communication skills
Druid was just nerfed into the dirt, they're finally fun and playable again. Can we stop nerfing so much and just enjoy how strong cards and decks feel???? I hate nerfs and decks that dominate like token druid are the meta, and so all decks will now revolve around beating agro token druid decks. That's how card games work kiddos!!!
Druid was just nerfed into the dirt, they're finally fun and playable again. Can we stop nerfing so much and just enjoy how strong cards and decks feel???? I hate nerfs and decks that dominate like token druid are the meta, and so all decks will now revolve around beating agro token druid decks. That's how card games work kiddos!!!
Token Druid will still exist even without Savage Roar. Want proof? Just play Token Druid and take out Savage Roar. I bet you'll still win most of your games.
The problem is not Token Druid being good, it's Savage Roar turning games into a one sided slaughter with no counterplay options.
I agree on the Hunter nerfs. Hyena and Rhyno are just ridiculous cards that should not be available to Hunter, given the tools they have gathered over the years.
Eh, I sorta disagree with you. For example, I would be happy if most of rogue's core cards were hof. Sap, vanish, prep, edwin, shadow step, backstab, deadly poison, eviscerate, cold blood, SI:7 agent are all tilting (for me).
Why? because they are cheep cards relative to their affects that win games. Everything about rogue's base set is oriented toward tempo, messing with the opponent, and allowing rogue to do large amounts of damage from an empty board or a nearly empty board. I personally dislike rogue's play style. I wouldn't seriously suggest nerfing or Hof all these core cards because I know that rogues are supposed to be able to do all the things that they can do and that, as long as rogue is not busted, players who enjoy rogue should be able to play their favorite class.
The only classic/basic cards that I agree should be changed are the ones that have unnecessary randomness. And maybe the neutral cards you mentioned. I think you might as well remove all evergreen card entirely if you start nerfing even more core cards. Some players have suggested hall of faming all evergreen and that's worth considering. I would prefer hof everything to slowly nerfing basic and classic into oblivion
Preparation has long been my 'Just get rid of it already' card. It completely destroys the balance of Rogue's spells, to the point that they have to get unplayable trash like WANTED! simply because it exists. It's not that it's ever been especially overpowered, it's that every single Rogue spell needs to be designed around it.
Mind Blast is just very... un-Priest. In most other classes, it would be downright broken, and the only reason it isn't consistently so in Priest is because it goes against the design of the class so much. I like the idea of Priest as a class that can bring back multiple copies of a minion and can generate a lot of spells, but as long as Mind Blast exists those styles of gameplay have an inherently too strong win-condition. Again, it kind of feels like it just needs to disappear entirely.
Tundra Rhino is an easy fix, and one which should be given to Warsong Commander now that the option exists - Rush, not Charge. Ta-da! Problem solved. Warsong can go back to its 3-Attack or less text with that change and be completely fine. The fact that Rush was introduced in an expansion shouldn't hinder this - it's not an expansion-only keyword like Echo or Adapt, but an evergreen one like Lifesteal or Poisonous.
I won't go into why I disagree with your other picks now - maybe later when I have more time to formulate my thoughts, who knows, I might end up agreeing with some of them instead - but I think you put a lot of good thought into your picks, even if many of them are the obvious ones.
Preparation has long been my 'Just get rid of it already' card. It completely destroys the balance of Rogue's spells, to the point that they have to get unplayable trash like WANTED! simply because it exists. It's not that it's ever been especially overpowered, it's that every single Rogue spell needs to be designed around it.
Mind Blast is just very... un-Priest. In most other classes, it would be downright broken, and the only reason it isn't consistently so in Priest is because it goes against the design of the class so much. I like the idea of Priest as a class that can bring back multiple copies of a minion and can generate a lot of spells, but as long as Mind Blast exists those styles of gameplay have an inherently too strong win-condition. Again, it kind of feels like it just needs to disappear entirely.
Tundra Rhino is an easy fix, and one which should be given to Warsong Commander now that the option exists - Rush, not Charge. Ta-da! Problem solved. Warsong can go back to its 3-Attack or less text with that change and be completely fine. The fact that Rush was introduced in an expansion shouldn't hinder this - it's not an expansion-only keyword like Echo or Adapt, but an evergreen one like Lifesteal or Poisonous.
I won't go into why I disagree with your other picks now - maybe later when I have more time to formulate my thoughts, who knows, I might end up agreeing with some of them instead - but I think you put a lot of good thought into your picks, even if many of them are the obvious ones.
I'm curiouss why you would disagree on Savage Roar. I thought about it for a long time but I just can't really come up with any good reason to justify its existence given the direction they#re trying to take Druid
You've listed nearly half the classes and slapped them all with the label "problematic," plus powerful neutrals used by the other classes, completely ignoring the fact that all of these so-called "problematic" cards and decks ultimately work together to create a meta that is extremely diverse and fun to play.
The truth is that there will always be some cards that stand out as good, but that doesn't mean Blizzard should kill them. If there were no powerful cards, the game itself would be quite boring. None of the cards you list here are stronger than they need to be, and as you mentioned yourself in several cases, some of them aren't powerful at all under different circumstances.
Truly problematic cards are ones that consistently warp the meta and make the game feel very same-y. The cards listed here are just utility cards and win conditions. They don't alter long stretches of a game -- they just let a class do what it's supposed to do, or they end a game quickly when not countered (and yes, every one of the win conditions has a counter, despite your rhetoric to the contrary). That's not problematic; it's how card games work.
I've made a thread about the Rogue spell Preparation. It seems to me that if you take it away, it would remove her identity, making her class less unique. Then of course... it may ruin her spells collection, but Preparation is what makes her a really great class to make a tempo or swing on turn.
Now, I'm not sure what else the problem are. Didn't have time to read through all, but I agree with Mountain Giant. The only solution is that he should be removed, there are so some common card draw engine in the early game, including warlock's one.
You've listed nearly half the classes and slapped them all with the label "problematic," plus powerful neutrals used by the other classes, completely ignoring the fact that all of these so-called "problematic" cards and decks ultimately work together to create a meta that is extremely diverse and fun to play.
The truth is that there will always be some cards that stand out as good, but that doesn't mean Blizzard should kill them. If there were no powerful cards, the game itself would be quite boring. None of the cards you list here are stronger than they need to be, and as you mentioned yourself in several cases, some of them aren't powerful at all under different circumstances.
Truly problematic cards are ones that consistently warp the meta and make the game feel very same-y. The cards listed here are just utility cards and win conditions. They don't alter long stretches of a game -- they just let a class do what it's supposed to do, or they end a game quickly when not countered (and yes, every one of the win conditions has a counter, despite your rhetoric to the contrary). That's not problematic; it's how card games work.
I didn't say the classes were problematic, I said certain cards are problematic. I also based this on Blizzard's previous decisions not just personal preference.
Also no, Savage Roar has no counter. When the only counter is to constantly clear the board and the class has more token generators than a class can reassonably clear then it's no longer counterable.
Same goes for Tundra Rhino. YOu can't counter chargers from hand. That's whyy they nerfed Force of NAture
Also, these cards can still create a diverse meta without just being one-card instant wins or just basically the all time best option available.
If and when nerfs happen. I just hope Blizzard can find ways to actually just nerf the cards rather than flat out destroy them and make them unplayable. New players need access to at least semi powerful cards without having to dump their bank account into the game to even get started. The 25 extra ranks helps new players a little bit, but after they reach rank 25 once, they start to face meta decks more often and they will never see above rank 25 again.
I do however have to give you credit for being very reasonable with your post. Everything you sad makes sense and are looked at from a neutral view. I am just more afraid of how Blizzard will handle things when they decide to bring the next nerf wave.
i feel like Mind Control Tech is just to swingy and random and can win u the game for a 3 drop
and i think as long as there is reasonable amount of cheap spell there is Gadgetzan Auctioneer to draw your whole deck and later u perform your win condition
So... only two cards that i have disagreements on:
Animal Companion: the randomness is not that bad of a thing. Randomness is what gives all of the hearthstone cards a sense of fun and excitement when you get the beast you need or combination you want. If you remove randomness from Animal Companion, it just feels like that hunter would turn out to be a boring and straightforward deck. (not that it isnt already, but at least getting the wrong beast can mess up your plays. Also, lets say that you discover one of the three beasts, all facehunter decks will mostly pick Huffer or, in a late game, Misha.)
Malygos: While i do agree that something may need to be done with this card and I know Team5 is keeping an eye on it, I believe Team5 has also stated that the card is in a spot where it creates decks based around it, and thats something that Team5 hopes to keep in the game. Sometimes cards like Malygos, while they are annoying, add another aspect to the game that allows for new types of decks. to remove it would be a problem. I still can see it being nerfed slightly to prevent large OTKs, but it probably should not be removed. Possible nerfs would be mana cost to 10, or lower spell damage to 3/4. 3 would probably be too low and ruin the card completely due to other cards that have spell damage +2 or spell damage +3 with spells cost 1 more.
I'm curiouss why you would disagree on Savage Roar. I thought about it for a long time but I just can't really come up with any good reason to justify its existence given the direction they#re trying to take Druid
Token Druid is an archetype that has ebbed and flowed as long as the class has existed, almost. Savage Roar seemed like a problem in the days of '14 Health? Dead', but now it's just a reasonably powerful finisher for the archetype.
The fact that Druid has also had longer gameplay archetypes - Ramp, Mecha'thun, Heal - doesn't contradict this archetype also existing, and in fact is a good sign that this card is fine. If these other archetypes can exist, completely without using Savage Roar, I don't see the problem with it. Is it strong? Yes. Is it too strong? I don't think so.
It has plenty of counter play in the form of proactive board clearing or passive Taunt denial, as well as simply pressuring them to use it as removal instead of as face damage. I think it's fine as is.
We would probably be better off without some of the Basic/Classic cards. [I eagerly await a world where Preparation doesn't exist.]
And there are some Basic/Classic cards that I wouldn't mind seeing rotate simply to change it up a bit. [You just get bored of Malygos being the go-to combo deck.]
But I think the problem that is bigger than both of these is that the Basic/Classic set is wildly unbalanced. It is no surprise that the classes which are almost always good also have the strongest Basic/Classic set. For example, the current Tempo Rogues play around 15-20 cards from Basic/Classic. That was the same with Druids, until they nerfed ramp into the ground.
Paladin and Priest are often boom/bust classes because their Basic/Classic sets are trash by comparison. They need OP cards in order to compete. And oftentimes, the overcorrection is drastic.
Also no, Savage Roar has no counter. When the only counter is to constantly clear the board and the class has more token generators than a class can reassonably clear then it's no longer counterable.
Same goes for Tundra Rhino. YOu can't counter chargers from hand. That's whyy they nerfed Force of NAture
If Savage Roar were impossible to counter, no one would be able to beat Token Druid, ever. But several decks can beat Token Druid. Therefore, Savage Roar isn't "problematic." It is NOT true that every deck or class should be able to counter it. That's not how Hearthstone balance works. It is perfectly fine that Savage Roar beats you if you can't or won't keep up with the clears. That's actually the whole point.
Similarly, Tundra Rhino is expensive enough that it cannot grant charge to any excessively powerful minion in the same turn without at least a three-card combo, plus a foolishly wide board on the other side with no big taunt. In most cases, it's no better than Leeroy. In the cases where it is better than Leeroy, it's the opponent's fault for going wide against Hunter.
Amusingly enough, the Rhino + Hyena + Hounds strategy is a balanced and necessary counter to token decks. Funny how that works, isn't it?
So before you get up in arms again with your "NeRfs 1 wEeK iNtO tHe ExPanSi0n, HhhhHHhHHhh", this is not a salt-thread about cards that I want nerfed because I lost to them once, it's not even about cards that I personally want to see nerfed at all. View this as some sort of a prediction thread, based on Blizzard's previous decisions to nerf/HoF Classic and BAsic cards.
Anyways, here goes:
Druid:
Reigning Champion of "Nerf Target". Doesn't look like that's going to stop anytime soon.
Savage Roar:
History: So this one had it coming for a while. Back in the day of...GvG I think there used to be a very oppressive Druid deck, dubbed "Combo Druid" (nowadays that doesn't say much, but back in the day it was the only one). Basically it used a pre-nerf Force of Nature (used to cost 6 and spawn trants with charge that died at the end of the turn) to burst down opponents after playing a midrangey playstyle trying to chip away at your opponents health. This deck got kinda out of hand after Emperor Thaurissan was released, which allowed for...a lot of damage from hand...very fast...with very little counterplay. The deck was so powerful that not only FoN got nerfed but also Keeper of the Grove and Ancient of Lore (come to think about it, Druid has gotten nerfed A LOT)
After Combo Druid was sufficiently murdered Savage Roar disappeared for a time until the Old Gods came around and the first true Token Druid was spawned. To be fair, at that time Yogg Saron, Hope's End carried the entire Druid class (and a few others...bad times, trying not to think about it).
After Yogg was gutted, the Roar vanished once again only to resurface with Aggro Druid, which wasn't necessarily OP, but also really REALLY frustrating to play against, precisely because of the ever looming threat of getting bursted by a bunch of PIrates and Saplings....on turn 3.
The next major appearane was during RR, before the Druid nerfs, when the class was basically able to do whatever it wanted. Token Druid was actually the strongest Druid deck at the time, mainly because of it's wincondition: Wispering Woods + Soul of the Forest which basically made it come down to: can my opponent clear the board twice in a turn? If yes: you lose, if no: you win.
Finally we're in the present where TOken Druid rules once again, and guess what's REAAAALLLY annoying again.
So for those who haven'T it figured out yet: Savage Roar causes some really polarizing situations: It basically forces your opponent to clear your board every turn or else they risk being bursted from 30 to anywhere between almost dead and very dead.
The Problem: Now by itself, having a win condition isn't really anything terribly broken. The problem arises when Druid gets to build and rebuild a full board too easily....which is precisely the case right now. Now of course you could just target all the token generators, but to be honest, I feel like Token Druid is actually a really cool archetype that fits well with the Druid fantasy of regrowth and nature...but Savage Roar turns it all into a game of "if you don't have enough boardclears or kill me quickly....you will hurt...a lot" and I think that's just not fun on either side (it's a little fun for the Druids)
For those who are going to bring up Bloodlust: not only is it much more expensive, but also in class which has far less options to refill the board efficiently, which is precisely the point: Huge Burst by board is a fine win condition as long as....there's an actual condition, instead of complete inevitability
The Solution: This is actually a bit difficult. Back in the day people proposed that Savage Roar should only buff Beasts, which, back then, was a reasonable solution since Druid actually played....beasts (sometimes....it was a work in progress). Obviously this really wouldn't be a reasonable solution nowadays
The other option would just be the classic "hit the mana cost". Getting it up to 5-mana would make it far less powerful as a tempo play, but the problem of "instant death" remains.
Finally, the actual attack buff could be reduced to 1...which would just make it a worse POwer of the Wild, which would be....a really desperate solution.
In the end there really isn't any solution that actually solves the issue without also destroying the card completely, but I also don't think that Team5 wants to see Token Druid as the definitive best deck against just about any matchup. ´We'll see how it turns out eventually. On a side not: Unnerf my boy,Ancient of Lore. A glorified Arcane Intellect on a 5/5 body for 7-mana is really not that strong and by the gods, Heal Druid could use some love.
Hunter:
Now I have to preface this by saying that Hunter has been my main class since the beginning of the game so anything I talk about here is something I legitimately think is unfair about the class from a player's point of view.
Tundra Rhino:
The Problem: I don't think I need to explain why this is stupid. Charge is a dangerous mechanic and Team5 has realized a long time ago that it should only be given TO VERY SPECIFIC MINIONS. That being said, Rhino is ridiculous if you really think about it: 5-mana, give charge to ANY Beast. the last time a minion gave charge to a general group of minions it was nerfed so hard it became the single worst card in the game (yes, Warsong Commander is that bad, it'S literally beyond useless in just about any realistic scenario).
Rhino slipped under the radar for a long time for a few reasons:
1) Midrange Hunter was always just....a thing. It never really ruled the meta until RR (which is where Rhino really shined in combination with Timber Wolf and Scavenging Hyena
2) It's kind of a bad card on its own and hard to just play outright on turn 5...at least it was until Hunter got so many (admittedly really fun) tools which just make it that much better.
The Solution: Anyway I look at it, it needs to go. As an absolute Hunter main, this card needs to burn and die. I have no actual idea how to do it, but it's pretty much the only card in the game I want to see Warsong'd...and I actually still vehemently disagree how that card was handled. The only way I could see it keeping its current effect is if it was bumped up to like 9-mana....without a stat buff.
Animal Companion:
History: Nothing much to say about the card other than it has been a staple in just about every HUnter deck ever. This in itself is not a problem. It's iconic, it's decent....it's also frustratingly random.
The Problem: I'll admit, this is very much a personal problem that most people probably won't share, but...I just hate how random it is. I hate that it's basically "3 overstatted 3-drops, one of which will fit your current situation perfectly while the rest are either useless or irrelevant" Need lethal? 1/3 chance, need a solid 3-drop? 1/3 chance, need to clear with Hounds? 1/3 chance. It just feels really cheap to highroll with and even worse to not hit what you need and just straight up lose.
The Solution: To be fair, there is no real "problem" to solve, but rather a nice QoL change for Hunter in general: Make it 4-mana and a Discover effect. Instead of a random overstatted 3-drop you get a slightly understatte 4-drop that comes with great flexibility...essentially Wardruid Loti for Hunter. I don't think Team5 will ever consider anything of the sort, but It's still something I thought of bringing up. I just don't like unnecessary RNG.
Scavenging Hyena:
The Problem: Now this one's a bit different. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with Hyena on a basic level. It gets very dangerous with Tundra Rhino, which, as we have established, is an abomination that needs to be eradicated, but by itself it's really not all that scary. Ofc it can get very big very quickly, but that kind of requires people playing straight into it.
That being said I belive this card is at least on a Blizzard's watchlist, especially since they keep pushing a "1-drop" archetype in Hunter and Hyena works very well with cheap beasts, as I'M sure most of you have experienced.
The Solution: There are two ways to neuter the Hyena if it's ever truly necessary
the soft one: make the buff only a +1/+1. Still scales hard and becomes hard to deal with, doesn't nearly hit as hard if you can't reasonably deal with it the turn it'S played.
the hard one: leave the attack buff at +2 and remove the health buff entirely. HIts hard as a truck, but folds like paper. This would effectively make the card useless outside of Rhino combos which hopefully won't be around for much longer.
Priest
People love them, People hate them. Fact is, they have the worst Classic set in the game...but there's still a problem
Divine Spirit:
The Problem: This is both Priest's biggest strength and their greatest enemy. We all know the story: Leave a big health minion up for a turn and you're gonna get punched by an even bigger minion the following turn. Taunts don't matter because Mass Dispel.
this means that as long as Divine Spirit exists, Priest can never be allowed to get a deck that can actually reasonably establish and maintain a board, because, much like with Druid and Savage Roar: a consistent board means instant death with little counterplay. As such Priest will always get sucky draw and sucky board clears...until they don't....and then Wall Priest happens and nobody wants that. It's pretty much the definition of design-imiting.
At the same time it's pretty much the only genuine win condition that Priest has (also the reason why Inner Fire Priest always ends up as the go-to deck at the start of each rotation)
The Solution: I really don't know. Probably something along the line of making it a flat health buff (2-mana +5 maybe?). Could always just increase the mana cost by 2 or 3, but at the end it would either just end up useless or still the same problem (but worse)
the hardest part about this is that Priest just wouldn't have any deck left to play if you did this mid-expansion. Before Spirit can get nerfed Priest actually needs a solid gameplan...and no, Prophet Velen doesn't cut it and eve if he did, it would be a terrible time for everyone else
Mind Blast:
Not gonna say much about this since BLizz has already mentioned they're keeping an eye on it. I personally don't see the problem with the card by itself even with Malygos and Velen existing. The Problem comes from Priest being unable to get mana-cheat cards because of it (the fallout of which we'Ve seen last expansion) and also that a 2-mana sm0rc card just doesn't feel very...Priest. If Blizzard decides that Mindblast needs to go eventually I won't be surprised, but for the love of god, give Priest SOMETHING to do instead of just clearing boards, healing stuff and stealing cards. You already have the ressurect theme, can't that just be about resummoning midrange boards instead of OTK setup?
Rogue
The cockroach
Preparation:
The Problem: I think everyone is familiar. Prep makes spells really good, therefore Rogue isn't allowed to get spells that are too good. Nerfing Prep would basically invalidate a lot of staples in Rogue, but it also prevents reasonably priced spells to be printed.
The Solution: There is no solution.
Nerfing it doesn't accomplish much (at best you could make it a 1-cost spell that reduces by 4, to emphasize it'S use on big spells and giving it a limit to its use (can't just be used as a "free" spell). Honestly, now that I type it out, this seems like the "fairest" solution to a crazy powerful spell, but at the same time it still only nerfs the tempo aspect of the card, not the fact that all ROgue spells need to be designed with Prep in mind
Other than that, there's only the Hall of Fame which would really cripple Rogue in Standard unless all other high-cost spells were to be buffed as compensation, which then would lead to Rogue being way stronger in Wild...which is also not ideal. Either way, I can't think of any good solution, but I really don't like the idea of Rogue not being able to get impactful big spells that are also playable without Prep.
Warrior
and they would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for those meddling bombs.
Brawl:
The Problem: so the last time I brought this up a lot of people got very triggered. Since then I've reconsidered a lot. My original point about this card was that it was too efficient of a boardclear in class that's already packed with removal, which wasn't a problem until Control Warrior got a bunch of extremely efficient value generators and win conditions shoved up its bum.
Warrior is the best Control class, no contest. this is not a problem. The problem arises when Control Warrior gets a good win condition. This now exists with Bomb Warrior. This problem gets even more complicated when you add an infinite value generator (even an inconsistent one like Mad Genius) and a powerful tempo play (Blastmaster). Basically Warrior has always been really good at beating just about everyone in the control game, with the inherent weakness of not really having an inherent lategame win condition (neither value nor finisher...at least not after Alex + Grom fell out of favour). Now they have it and it's highlighting a few issues. One of these issues is Brawl, which is just incredibly efficient and becomes even more efficient when surviving has an actual goal to work towards instead of just trying to grind out your opponent.
But all of that just relates to the current state of Warrior. In fact, Brawl has a far bigger problem regardless of the meta:
Brawl is just the best AoE removal that Warrior has...maybe even the best in the game (next to PSychic Scream). The Problem is that Control Warrior will never EVER have any reason to run anything other than Brawl....which basically eliminates really cool build arounds from ever seeing play. Take Deadly Arsenal for instance. It's not a bad card at all, but it requires buildaround to be efficient....but with Brawl there is no reason to ever even consider it. There's just no AoE removal that competes with Brawl so it will always be THE card to run in Ctrl WArrior....and while I personally don't view that as much of a problem (I just think it's kinda boring) BLizzard has shown over and voer that they really don't like auto-includes in their Classic and BAsic sets. As such, there is a pretty good chance they'll eventually target Brawl, regardless of whether Warrior remains a problem or not.
Finally, there'S the RNG factor. As I said before, I don't like unnecessary RNG...and I like game-swinging RNG effects on cards with no build around even less. Effectively, the outcome of Brawl often determines the outcome of the game....and when it usually feels really bad for whoever receives the short end of the stick.
The Solution: Initially I was going for a mana increase to around 6 or 7. Lately I've been moving away from that idea. I realized that, even with all the incredibly efficient and sometimes downright busted removal Warrrior has access to, Brawl is still essential for them to deal with early aggression, especially after they can't rely on Fiery War Axe anymore.
So instead I'm doubling down on the change I also briefly touched on in that one other post that people took issue with: Remove the RNG from Brawl by always having the minion with the highest attack survive.
This has two effects:
It makes Brawl less unpredictable, overall less frustrating and most of all...more situational. NO more clutch 50/50s to remove a MOuntaint Giant. Now you actually have to use Execute....LIKE IT WAS INTENDED TO. NO more playing a single minion to hope for RNGsus to suck you off and give you a full clear + tempo. Instead, just like in a real Brawl, the one who hits the hardest wins. This also allows minion-focussed decks to legitimately play aorund Brawl instead of having to hope for RNG to not fuck them completely. At the same time it would make Brawl less optimal in some situation and warrant the inclusion of different board clears.
UNfortunately, if Blizz ever targets Brawl, I don't think they'll take this solution and instead will just opt for a standard mana nerf. In any case, I don't think any nerf to Brawl would kill Ctrl Warrior completely...just make it less all around powerful and give options to print more legitimate win condition...or just play Bomb Warrior for the time being and rake in wins anyways.
Neutrals
Just a few miscreants that you should probably keep your extra copies of
Mountain Giant:
The Problem: This is ....a problem, but not necessarily by itself. Mountain Giant always ends up being abused when any deck can justify drawing lots of cards early. Evenlock did that very well and often won games because of it. Now Mage is doing it even better thanks to Conjurer's Calling (although it's really the fault of the spell here).
The problem is that Mountain Giant's design contradicts the basic philosophy. If any class is able to summon a large minion early in the game it should have a counter. Mountain Giant has nothing of the sort. it can't be silenced, it can't be played aorund (like Scavenging Hyena could)....and the thing is...not every class has access to low-cost removal. Hunter does, Warrior does, Mage does. Druid does not and neither does Warlock.
Basically in some matchups MG can be dealt with, but the ones in which he can't are effectively unwinnable if he comes down on curve. It's a polarizing card that keeps getting abused everytime a class can consistently draw cards early on.
The Solution: I don't think MG will ever get nerfed to be honest. There's just no real way. If you increase its mana cost it just becomes....pointless? It probably will just end up being Hall of Famed somewhere down the line...maybe even next year if Conjurer's Calling doesn't get nerfed
Leeroy Jenkins:
nothing much to say about it to be honest. It's a charger, and an efficient one at that. not that I personally want him gone, but knowing Blizzard he's gonna enter the Hall of Fame somewhere down the line...at least once they decide that aggro finishers should be class specific.
Malygos:
Once again...BLizzard has already talked about this one. It limits design space, and it has created some gross decks over its lifespan. My biggest gripe is the fact that it just kind of...excludes more interesting combo decks. Take Gonk the Raptor for example. Could easily be a playable combo deck (well, not now, because Druid'S defenses are ass, but there's always the future) but there's just no reason to ever play a Gonk deck as long as you can just play Malygos.
Alexstraza:
Same problem as Malygos in a way. It's a neutral combo enabler that will always restrict how much damage you can reasonably allow a class to have access to. Hall of Fame candidate as well.
Conclusion
This took way longer than I expected. NOt even sure I made entirely coherent points.
Either way, I wanted to get this off my mind. I'm not here to argue on whether I'm right or wrong, this is mostly an observation and a bit of prediction.
That being said, I'm still open to discussion. If you have any cards to add here I'll be glad to hear you out. If all you have to contribute is "lmao ur idyot, this card is fine because I said so" you're free to do so...but expect me to call you an inept moron who lacks basic communication skills
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Druid was just nerfed into the dirt, they're finally fun and playable again. Can we stop nerfing so much and just enjoy how strong cards and decks feel???? I hate nerfs and decks that dominate like token druid are the meta, and so all decks will now revolve around beating agro token druid decks. That's how card games work kiddos!!!
Awesome read, thank you for such amazing job at analyzing everything! :D
My fanmade expansion! (Click on pack to open packs with my cards)
Token Druid will still exist even without Savage Roar. Want proof? Just play Token Druid and take out Savage Roar. I bet you'll still win most of your games.
The problem is not Token Druid being good, it's Savage Roar turning games into a one sided slaughter with no counterplay options.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
I agree on the Hunter nerfs. Hyena and Rhyno are just ridiculous cards that should not be available to Hunter, given the tools they have gathered over the years.
Eh, I sorta disagree with you. For example, I would be happy if most of rogue's core cards were hof. Sap, vanish, prep, edwin, shadow step, backstab, deadly poison, eviscerate, cold blood, SI:7 agent are all tilting (for me).
Why? because they are cheep cards relative to their affects that win games. Everything about rogue's base set is oriented toward tempo, messing with the opponent, and allowing rogue to do large amounts of damage from an empty board or a nearly empty board. I personally dislike rogue's play style. I wouldn't seriously suggest nerfing or Hof all these core cards because I know that rogues are supposed to be able to do all the things that they can do and that, as long as rogue is not busted, players who enjoy rogue should be able to play their favorite class.
The only classic/basic cards that I agree should be changed are the ones that have unnecessary randomness. And maybe the neutral cards you mentioned. I think you might as well remove all evergreen card entirely if you start nerfing even more core cards. Some players have suggested hall of faming all evergreen and that's worth considering. I would prefer hof everything to slowly nerfing basic and classic into oblivion
The only cards I really agree with here are Preparation, Mind Blast and Tundra Rhino. I can see the arguments for Malygos and Alexstrasza too, I guess.
Preparation has long been my 'Just get rid of it already' card. It completely destroys the balance of Rogue's spells, to the point that they have to get unplayable trash like WANTED! simply because it exists. It's not that it's ever been especially overpowered, it's that every single Rogue spell needs to be designed around it.
Mind Blast is just very... un-Priest. In most other classes, it would be downright broken, and the only reason it isn't consistently so in Priest is because it goes against the design of the class so much. I like the idea of Priest as a class that can bring back multiple copies of a minion and can generate a lot of spells, but as long as Mind Blast exists those styles of gameplay have an inherently too strong win-condition. Again, it kind of feels like it just needs to disappear entirely.
Tundra Rhino is an easy fix, and one which should be given to Warsong Commander now that the option exists - Rush, not Charge. Ta-da! Problem solved. Warsong can go back to its 3-Attack or less text with that change and be completely fine. The fact that Rush was introduced in an expansion shouldn't hinder this - it's not an expansion-only keyword like Echo or Adapt, but an evergreen one like Lifesteal or Poisonous.
I won't go into why I disagree with your other picks now - maybe later when I have more time to formulate my thoughts, who knows, I might end up agreeing with some of them instead - but I think you put a lot of good thought into your picks, even if many of them are the obvious ones.
You can find me here! Good luck everyone!
Brawl, Shadowstep, Savage Roar.
I'm curiouss why you would disagree on Savage Roar. I thought about it for a long time but I just can't really come up with any good reason to justify its existence given the direction they#re trying to take Druid
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
This is the most ridiculous thread yet.
You've listed nearly half the classes and slapped them all with the label "problematic," plus powerful neutrals used by the other classes, completely ignoring the fact that all of these so-called "problematic" cards and decks ultimately work together to create a meta that is extremely diverse and fun to play.
The truth is that there will always be some cards that stand out as good, but that doesn't mean Blizzard should kill them. If there were no powerful cards, the game itself would be quite boring. None of the cards you list here are stronger than they need to be, and as you mentioned yourself in several cases, some of them aren't powerful at all under different circumstances.
Truly problematic cards are ones that consistently warp the meta and make the game feel very same-y. The cards listed here are just utility cards and win conditions. They don't alter long stretches of a game -- they just let a class do what it's supposed to do, or they end a game quickly when not countered (and yes, every one of the win conditions has a counter, despite your rhetoric to the contrary). That's not problematic; it's how card games work.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I've made a thread about the Rogue spell Preparation. It seems to me that if you take it away, it would remove her identity, making her class less unique. Then of course... it may ruin her spells collection, but Preparation is what makes her a really great class to make a tempo or swing on turn.
Now, I'm not sure what else the problem are. Didn't have time to read through all, but I agree with Mountain Giant. The only solution is that he should be removed, there are so some common card draw engine in the early game, including warlock's one.
I like elementals and totems.
I didn't say the classes were problematic, I said certain cards are problematic. I also based this on Blizzard's previous decisions not just personal preference.
Also no, Savage Roar has no counter. When the only counter is to constantly clear the board and the class has more token generators than a class can reassonably clear then it's no longer counterable.
Same goes for Tundra Rhino. YOu can't counter chargers from hand. That's whyy they nerfed Force of NAture
Also, these cards can still create a diverse meta without just being one-card instant wins or just basically the all time best option available.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
If and when nerfs happen. I just hope Blizzard can find ways to actually just nerf the cards rather than flat out destroy them and make them unplayable. New players need access to at least semi powerful cards without having to dump their bank account into the game to even get started. The 25 extra ranks helps new players a little bit, but after they reach rank 25 once, they start to face meta decks more often and they will never see above rank 25 again.
I do however have to give you credit for being very reasonable with your post. Everything you sad makes sense and are looked at from a neutral view. I am just more afraid of how Blizzard will handle things when they decide to bring the next nerf wave.
pretty much nailed it but in my list im going to include Gadgetzan Auctioneer and Mind Control Tech instead of Brawl and Alexstrasza
i feel like Mind Control Tech is just to swingy and random and can win u the game for a 3 drop
and i think as long as there is reasonable amount of cheap spell there is Gadgetzan Auctioneer to draw your whole deck and later u perform your win condition
So... only two cards that i have disagreements on:
Animal Companion: the randomness is not that bad of a thing. Randomness is what gives all of the hearthstone cards a sense of fun and excitement when you get the beast you need or combination you want. If you remove randomness from Animal Companion, it just feels like that hunter would turn out to be a boring and straightforward deck. (not that it isnt already, but at least getting the wrong beast can mess up your plays. Also, lets say that you discover one of the three beasts, all facehunter decks will mostly pick Huffer or, in a late game, Misha.)
Malygos: While i do agree that something may need to be done with this card and I know Team5 is keeping an eye on it, I believe Team5 has also stated that the card is in a spot where it creates decks based around it, and thats something that Team5 hopes to keep in the game. Sometimes cards like Malygos, while they are annoying, add another aspect to the game that allows for new types of decks. to remove it would be a problem. I still can see it being nerfed slightly to prevent large OTKs, but it probably should not be removed. Possible nerfs would be mana cost to 10, or lower spell damage to 3/4. 3 would probably be too low and ruin the card completely due to other cards that have spell damage +2 or spell damage +3 with spells cost 1 more.
Current homebrew variations of decks:
Token Druid is an archetype that has ebbed and flowed as long as the class has existed, almost. Savage Roar seemed like a problem in the days of '14 Health? Dead', but now it's just a reasonably powerful finisher for the archetype.
The fact that Druid has also had longer gameplay archetypes - Ramp, Mecha'thun, Heal - doesn't contradict this archetype also existing, and in fact is a good sign that this card is fine. If these other archetypes can exist, completely without using Savage Roar, I don't see the problem with it. Is it strong? Yes. Is it too strong? I don't think so.
It has plenty of counter play in the form of proactive board clearing or passive Taunt denial, as well as simply pressuring them to use it as removal instead of as face damage. I think it's fine as is.
You can find me here! Good luck everyone!
-delete-
We would probably be better off without some of the Basic/Classic cards. [I eagerly await a world where Preparation doesn't exist.]
And there are some Basic/Classic cards that I wouldn't mind seeing rotate simply to change it up a bit. [You just get bored of Malygos being the go-to combo deck.]
But I think the problem that is bigger than both of these is that the Basic/Classic set is wildly unbalanced. It is no surprise that the classes which are almost always good also have the strongest Basic/Classic set. For example, the current Tempo Rogues play around 15-20 cards from Basic/Classic. That was the same with Druids, until they nerfed ramp into the ground.
Paladin and Priest are often boom/bust classes because their Basic/Classic sets are trash by comparison. They need OP cards in order to compete. And oftentimes, the overcorrection is drastic.
If you say mind blast than kill comand, fireball, evis etc should be gone too :)
If Savage Roar were impossible to counter, no one would be able to beat Token Druid, ever. But several decks can beat Token Druid. Therefore, Savage Roar isn't "problematic." It is NOT true that every deck or class should be able to counter it. That's not how Hearthstone balance works. It is perfectly fine that Savage Roar beats you if you can't or won't keep up with the clears. That's actually the whole point.
Similarly, Tundra Rhino is expensive enough that it cannot grant charge to any excessively powerful minion in the same turn without at least a three-card combo, plus a foolishly wide board on the other side with no big taunt. In most cases, it's no better than Leeroy. In the cases where it is better than Leeroy, it's the opponent's fault for going wide against Hunter.
Amusingly enough, the Rhino + Hyena + Hounds strategy is a balanced and necessary counter to token decks. Funny how that works, isn't it?
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland