So while im having fun with my Varian Wrynn warrior and Effigy mage, theres a class i like thats just left completely in the dust for this expansion (Rogue).
So what happened with the design? Top players like Dog refuse to play Rogue after TGT because he said "they got absolutely nothing". Ryzen, one of the best rogue players on stream only added Refreshment Vendor to his mill rogue and thats it.
1) After Trade Prince Gallywix, they still dont understand how rogues tick. Trade Prince Gallywix is a great legendary. I believe many decks would play it if it were neutral. But why doesnt rogue play it? Simply put, rogue cannot play control long enough to play high cost minions with a delayed effect. Rogue is BAD at control with limited health gain and removal tools, unless you give them these tools you cant expect this to take off.
There is simply no point in investing so much to deviate from your objective of gaining tempo and bursting your opponent down. Blizzard didnt learn a thing from this experience, and continued to put large cards like Anub'arak and Shado-Pan Rider which rogue simply cannot use.
2) They try pushing pirates, again. To be fair, its not a bad idea to push this, pirates a cool but was never competitive. But with only cards like Buccaneer and Shady Dealer (Which isnt even a pirate), did they really expect that to change?
3) TGT sucks for rogue in the first place. Rogue dont run big minions, the biggest minion in oil rogue is loatheb, occasionally Dr Boom is fringe played. Like i said, control rogue is not really a thing, so Joust sucks at this point for rogues.
What about inspire? Obviously the design team thought oh crap rogue cant hero power frequently without destroying their buffed weapons. SO what do they do? Enter Poisoned Blade, the worst weapon ever made. This card is a serious insult.
Did they just throw this piece of crap out after someone voiced out the inspire problem and say "Yea sounds good who cares" without ANYONE in the team realising it takes 8 mana and 2 turns before it even becomes an Assassin's Blade with 1 less durability? And to top it off they made it epic too?
4) Throw in a couple of RNG spells like Beneath the Grounds and Burgle and you have a recipe of a complete garbage expansion for rogue. Even Ryzen, the best mill rogue player i have ever seen doesnt put beneath the grounds in the deck.
5) Remaining cards like cutpurse and undercity valiant are too low powered. Cutpurse [/card]is a joke compared to [card]Darnassus Aspirant, Mechwarper, even Sorcerer's Apprentice with those stats. And it costs 2 mana which is usually a dagger turn.
6) No neutral cards AT ALL for rogue, with the exception of Refreshment Vendor which is only played in fringe decks like control rogue and mill rogue.
Seriously, what a disappointment. What on earth happened to make TGT so bad for rogue? People said Shaman had it bad but this is the first time i've seen an expansion for a card game that has absolutely no cards usable competitively for a class, not even neutrals.
The bottom line is that the reason Rogues suck is that they don't have enough bullshit. Tier 1 decks have insane amounts of bullshit, that's why they're so good. Rogues, since they lack this trait, are balanced. Balanced isn't good if you want to compete with top tier decks. The best thing Rogues have is Oil + Blade Flurry. Cutpurse can be bullshit if you can coin him out, hit face, and coin out an SI:7, however it won't live long enough to reach that level.
The other cards you mentioned are balanced. Nothing outstanding about them that Rogues can exploit. Trade Prince, Shado-Pan, they're basically Boulderfist Orges. Pirates lack some bullshit tempo that other tribals have and they lack minion summons so you can't exploit Ship Cannon as effectively. I mean you can exploit Ship Cannon now, but you have to invest in 1 or 2 cards, and if the opponent clears it you just lost 3 cards instead of 2 if you ran a Pirate that summons another Pirate.
Rogues lost all their bullshit when Miracle was nerfed into the ground. I am hoping another deck on the level of Oil Rogue is found sometime within the lifespan of this expansion. Anub'arak is pretty bullshit if a Control Rogue deck becomes viable since he's a good win-condition if not dealt with.
The real trouble with Rogues in the current meta (generally since Miracle with only a brief window of strength for Oil) is that the Rogue design, with combos, lends itself to tempo play. Rogue cards have to be played in bunches in order to activate the combo effect. That encourages a Rogue to empty her hand. Moreover, because you have to play 2 cards at a time, you need fast, cheap spells and minions. You need stuff like coin into Defias Ringleader; Backstab into SI:7 Agent, etc. If you play slow or expensive cards, you throw out most of the defining cards that make Rogue who she is: stuff like Eviscerate, Preparation, etc. Rogue is inherently fragile, because she uses her face to clear the board, and she can't play big stuff, because of her tempo issues, so she needs to be able to burst down opponents and fight for a rapid conquest of the board leading to quick, fast, lethal. The game has been moving away from this style of play for a long time. Antique Healbot was a disaster for Rogues. Sludge Belcher is bad for Rogues. Dr. Boom is nearly a deathknell. I have seen Rogues SapDr. Boom twice in a row! Rogues need some OP stuff in a hurry to become competitive again. Cutpurse is a cute idea that steps in the right direction, but it needs to be something usable. For example, a 2/2 that does something like combo, put 2 coins into your hand. Now we're talking. Rogue needs combo effects that are silly OP, reinforcing the theme of what Rogue is. Forget the rubbish kidnapper. How about a 6-mana 4/5 that removes target enemy minion and puts it into the Rogue's hand? That would be a worthy Rogue legendary. Rogue is also a class that could really afford to have secrets. It's already the most spell-heavy class. And secrets are very thematic. Valeera really needs some help. Right now, she sucks.
Its a sad day for rogue, and days to come. Blizzard typically is not upfront with mistakes and unlikely to change any existing cards/mechanics - for the better, and given the current state of rogues, it will need 'at least' another expansion to fix =(.
I miss those miracle days...I actually had 'fun' with that type of deck than a lot of established decks these days.
actually, rogue is to me is one of the more well design classes. it's just harder to pull off than blizzard thought i think.
here's my theory: each class has their specialty:
mage, damaging nukes, minions that supports or feed off said nukes, fireball, frostbolt, mana wyrm, antonidas, rhonin, flamewaker
warrior, built up armor, stall and slowly damage, take dmg and deal it back, can suck up dmg, shieldmaiden, whirlwind, shield block, bash, grommash
priest, heal bot, cards that feed off heals or manipulate heals, thought manipulation, thoughtsteal, flash heal, light of the naaru, holy champion, soulpriest
shaman, under cost nukes with big drawback with some cost reduction cards to make things lighter, ancestral calling, far sight, lightning storm, elemental destruction, neptulon,
paladins, durable minions, constant pressure, and creature pumps for more pressure, blessing of kings, blessing of might, murloc knight, muster for battle
so what's rogue specialty? diversity and combo. rogue is the only class that so far each set when it comes out has one or two card that focus on a specific deck type and it can't be run anywhere else. take a look for example mid range pally and secret pally, they all run shielded mini bot, they all run muster for battle, they all run the same thing with some variety.
rogue is the only class that doesn't have that. you can't find a buccaneer in mill rogue and you are less likely to find beneath the grounds in oil rogue, and chances are you wont find shiv in any rogue deck except for miracle rogue. so what makes rogue so hard to balance? well, for starter, because it does cater to diversity, you can't just have each set focus on one deck type.... if you have an oil rogue oriented set, mill rogue, control rogue (it might exist), miracle rogue won't get anything and it will have to wait while other decks will have new toys that is focus on their focused theme.
so it's not that the rogue cards are generally bad or overpower, its the fact that the deck they can be run in doesnt exist yet and you dont want to introduce too much possibility early on, because it makes the game way unpredictable. think about it, you look at your opponent with a warrior deck, currently you are thinking, patron, dragon control, varian control, they all run similar cards but the guess work is limited.
now imagine if you get oil rogue, miracle rogue, mill rogue, control rogue, pirate rogue out all at once and enable them all at once within 2 expansion, a base set, and 2 adventure set... then the guess work for the rogue's opponent is now tougher and their mulligan is harder to decide....
and if you pay attention to the cards slowly release, you got combo and card draws in one class with massive dmg..... you got cost reduction and 0 spells that enable combo set up in the base set with auctioneer just helps enable it even faster... rogues are the jack of all trade and master of none, most of spell does dmg, but not as much as a mage while drawing more cards than a warrior........ priest was control, hunter was aggro... it was one deck for each class, and with each set release, each class gets one to two new types of deck.... rogue's cards are all over the place. you have oil, one or two pirate in GvG which dont go together, then you have gang up from BRM, which gave us mill........ in TGT, we have slower cards like anub which tries to push a slower less combo oriented format, and beneath the grounds which can be played in mill, and you have burgle..... which is a mini nef.... its like a worser thoughtsteal (jack of all trade master of none) which can play to a more unpredictable deck style that is about stealing the possible best of your opponent's attribute which could be a decktype.
so for me, the rogue isn't here for the short burst of excitement, its patiently bidding its time like a good rogue should, bidding its time to release all its potential at once.
Really, I don't get why so many people trust Blizzard about "balance". They don't give a damn about balance and powercreep (look Ice Rager). They just thought "Hey Anub'arak would be fun for Rogue !" and hop, they made it, without thinking more than 2 seconds about the class or balance.
That's why we have some complete bullshit decks like Patron Warrior (the most recent), Mech Mage (for 6 months) or Face Hunter (since so many time ...), and the classes like Priest, Shaman and Rogue that get completely abandonned.
Let's be honest, Rogue didn't get any competitive card since Beta. Even new neutrals are usually bad for Rogue or even completely counters the class. Tinker's Sharpsword Oil is a poorly designed card that somebody managed to make a deck with (kinda like Grim Patron, that is a bad card on its own). Blizzard doesn't give a damn about balance or meta. They just throw a bunch of cards in the game from time to time and get all the cash.
Plus your are speaking about inexisting and gimmicky decks. Mill Rogue has never been really serious, Control Rogue has never existed (and never will, sorry Anub'arak and Trade Prince Gallywix), and Pirate Rogue never worked (and this expansion won't help).
Right now Rogue has only one viable archetype : Oil Rogue. Would it hurt Blizzard just to give something to add to it ? They gave toys for Tempo Mage and Midrange Hunter, that were already working pre-TGT. And most of all : Pirate, Mill and Control Rogue won't work. Why did they gave only shitty cards for those archetypes ? Nothing for Combo Rogue (a real drawing mechanics for example), nothing for Tempo Rogue (used to be a thing, 1 or 2 cards as strong as Imp Gang Boss or Flamewaker would make it viable again) or even Midrange Rogue (that could exist too).
To make Pirate Rogue work, Blizzard should add at least 7-8 more Pirates with more synergy (spawning mechanics, draw, etc). For Control Rogue to work, Blizzard should add at least 10 more cards. Rogue would need some serious finisher (Anub'arak fills this role), but also real draw mechanics (let's be real, Sprint is trash), more survivability (Antique Healbot can't carry alone), some hard removal (Execute > Sap) and AoE (Consecration > Fan of Knives) AND more strong creatures (like Trade Prince Gallywix). This won't happen before 2020.
Rogue is really a let down, nothing to makes him viable in the game, meta or unranked, most of the time you empty your hand trying to face the aggro, or get ass raped by controls and their armor / heal / taunts that you can hardly bypass...
TGT didn't make the thinks better, the cards are awfull, for exemple, cutpurse was a good idea, but the execution is terrible, to make it good it needs stealth or charge... here you have a 2 drop that won't last a turn and give you no real advantage...
Beneath The Roots doesn't work either, ok, you wanna mill ? Why not, but if you wanna mill why adding card yo your opponent deck ? This simply doesn't work...
Well, I'm so disappointed :(
Going back to my dragon priest or my huntard.
Beneath doesn't count as drawing, otherwise it would have been OP. You actually "draw" it put the 4/4 and then proceed to draw your card so it's only a benefit for mill.
I've played Oil today and it's still a Tier 1 deck, really strong since decks are overextending a lot more
The real problem ? within 2 expantion and an adventure we only had ONE card usable ( Oil ) and without that card a rogue deck would not even exist...and that is funny because Oil is a really bad card on it's own
1 Year of oil rogue and still counting...i'm quite bored about rogue
The problem with mill is that you often burn you opponent cards. If you happen to burn one Ambush, you basically just gave a card to your opponent and lost the 4/4. So that's not that benefitting for mill. And it's not an adventure, it's two. Naxx, BRM, GvG and TGT.
And people stop acting like mill was a serious deck !
With that in mind, WHY does the noble Priest class have the theft cards? Mind Control in particular. Yes, I know in WoW Priest had a MC spell. But, to me, it seems like thievery should be largely left to the Rogue class in HS.
Part of the problem might be Rogue's history. Before GvG, it was the most absurd class in the game. It had about 3 functioning archetypes, tempo, face, and miracle, and all of them were somewhat ridiculous. Prior to that, they had old miracle, and before that months and months of unstable, easily ridiculous rogue builds. Rogue is a class that, from a balance standpoint, is incredibly scary, and can function in so many different archetypes that giving them a tool for one might break something else.
How do you give Rogue good, fun to use, functional board clear that doesn't break Oil Rogue? How do you give Rogue good stall and heal that doesn't break mill?
Kkeegan's nonsense notwithstanding (saying 'ice rager is power creep' as your argument for blizzard not caring is basically shooting yourself in the foot from the start), Mill is a genuine archetype for rogue, and boasts ridiculous win percentages against slow decks.
How, from a balance perspective, do you give Rogue the tools to play a control archetype (one that was already pretty good at the start of GvG and hasn't lost much power, in all honesty. From testing then and now, control rogue plays and has winrates akin to midrange shaman just before TGT, and given that the deck was still popular and got very frequent legend seatings, that's nothing to sneeze at). Putting out fun, thematic cards that give Mill rogue an interesting board condition and otherwise provide a lot of different archetypes with tentatitve tools is a very nice way to go.
Giving Rogue things that are too strong will break the class and make the game incredibly unfun. It's happened before, and it can happen again. Rogue unfun decks have to be answered very differently than other unfun decks. Patron is answered with stall, board clear, large threats. Rogue is handled by going full face, hence a very gross period in the meta around may of 2014, which eventually resulted in the return of freeze mage. The approach of slowly giving them decent threats is a fine one to take, and in the meantime Rogue is still a top tier class, and with Shaman and Paladin on the rise, it's getting even better.
Sorry bud, just because you can say every type of rogue runs these cards (All Classic) doesn't counter the fact that all of the new cards since Classic are all over the place. Noctune has it right.
I cried when i saw rogue cards announced. I dont know what blizzard trying to do with that class. Take legendaries for example: Edvin was pretty good and feeled rogue'ish, combo theme etc. Then Gallywix... then Anubarak...... stop killing my favorite class blizzard, please.
I enjoyed playing Tempo Rogue back in the day, when it was viable. Miracle Rogue...I spit on your haircut. Perhaps someone should look at that old list to see if it can be resurrected with newer cards. Let Miracle Rogue go ;). Oil is just a attempt to recreate the burst of Miracle.
In my opinion the so called Tempo Rogue was really a control deck, much like Zoo. But unlike typical control decks which (some wrongly think can only be late game) give up the early game, try to stabilize during mid-game and crush late, tempo and zoo start out trying to control the board early to crush mid. Zoo starts on the 1st turn.
Hell, Miracle was control. I have wondered if Emperor Thaurissan would enable Miracle to work again. Perhaps the timing gets all screwed up because of the card I shall not name being moved to a 6 drop. Even with Emperor enabling the end-game burst combo from before.
Sorry bud, just because you can say every type of rogue runs these cards (All Classic) doesn't counter the fact that all of the new cards since Classic are all over the place. Noctune has it right.
Lol, you didn't even understood what we were talking about, and come here to brag. So cute.
Edit : and then you don't even know the differences between Tempo, Control and Combo ... go back to Druid forums plz.
It is indeed a sad day when fans understand the class mechanics more than the designers of the game.
I agree with this to a certain extent. I do not know the exact amount of players Hearthstone has, but I can infer it is a substantial amount. Out of all the opinions that these players have, there will undeniably be a certain percentage of beneficial perspectives coming from players that the design team simply doesn't and could not be expected to have. It is the responsibility of the design team to find these perspectives, analyze them, and fold them into their understanding of the game - this is how a product improves.
So the true issue is not that some fans understand the game better than the designers - this is an expected and natural course for any product, particularly when it comes to games or apps like Hearthstone. The tragic flaw for a product is when the designers fail to take the appropriate initiative to seek objective criticism from the users of the product.
I will admit this is difficult to do with such a large and vocal fanbase. Sifting through the noise is difficult, and there is a lot of it. Finding the valid and necessary feedback from a large user base takes a lot of time and research to confirm. I would go so far as to say it would be difficult to make any change to the game without having some percentage of the community express negative feelings about it - regardless of whether their criticism is valid or not.
So while im having fun with my Varian Wrynn warrior and Effigy mage, theres a class i like thats just left completely in the dust for this expansion (Rogue).
So what happened with the design? Top players like Dog refuse to play Rogue after TGT because he said "they got absolutely nothing". Ryzen, one of the best rogue players on stream only added Refreshment Vendor to his mill rogue and thats it.
1) After Trade Prince Gallywix, they still dont understand how rogues tick. Trade Prince Gallywix is a great legendary. I believe many decks would play it if it were neutral. But why doesnt rogue play it? Simply put, rogue cannot play control long enough to play high cost minions with a delayed effect. Rogue is BAD at control with limited health gain and removal tools, unless you give them these tools you cant expect this to take off.
There is simply no point in investing so much to deviate from your objective of gaining tempo and bursting your opponent down. Blizzard didnt learn a thing from this experience, and continued to put large cards like Anub'arak and Shado-Pan Rider which rogue simply cannot use.
2) They try pushing pirates, again. To be fair, its not a bad idea to push this, pirates a cool but was never competitive. But with only cards like Buccaneer and Shady Dealer (Which isnt even a pirate), did they really expect that to change?
3) TGT sucks for rogue in the first place. Rogue dont run big minions, the biggest minion in oil rogue is loatheb, occasionally Dr Boom is fringe played. Like i said, control rogue is not really a thing, so Joust sucks at this point for rogues.
What about inspire? Obviously the design team thought oh crap rogue cant hero power frequently without destroying their buffed weapons. SO what do they do? Enter Poisoned Blade, the worst weapon ever made. This card is a serious insult.
Did they just throw this piece of crap out after someone voiced out the inspire problem and say "Yea sounds good who cares" without ANYONE in the team realising it takes 8 mana and 2 turns before it even becomes an Assassin's Blade with 1 less durability? And to top it off they made it epic too?
4) Throw in a couple of RNG spells like Beneath the Grounds and Burgle and you have a recipe of a complete garbage expansion for rogue. Even Ryzen, the best mill rogue player i have ever seen doesnt put beneath the grounds in the deck.
5) Remaining cards like cutpurse and undercity valiant are too low powered. Cutpurse [/card]is a joke compared to [card]Darnassus Aspirant, Mechwarper, even Sorcerer's Apprentice with those stats. And it costs 2 mana which is usually a dagger turn.
6) No neutral cards AT ALL for rogue, with the exception of Refreshment Vendor which is only played in fringe decks like control rogue and mill rogue.
Seriously, what a disappointment. What on earth happened to make TGT so bad for rogue? People said Shaman had it bad but this is the first time i've seen an expansion for a card game that has absolutely no cards usable competitively for a class, not even neutrals.
Legend Rogue, druid when lazy
The bottom line is that the reason Rogues suck is that they don't have enough bullshit. Tier 1 decks have insane amounts of bullshit, that's why they're so good. Rogues, since they lack this trait, are balanced. Balanced isn't good if you want to compete with top tier decks. The best thing Rogues have is Oil + Blade Flurry. Cutpurse can be bullshit if you can coin him out, hit face, and coin out an SI:7, however it won't live long enough to reach that level.
The other cards you mentioned are balanced. Nothing outstanding about them that Rogues can exploit. Trade Prince, Shado-Pan, they're basically Boulderfist Orges. Pirates lack some bullshit tempo that other tribals have and they lack minion summons so you can't exploit Ship Cannon as effectively. I mean you can exploit Ship Cannon now, but you have to invest in 1 or 2 cards, and if the opponent clears it you just lost 3 cards instead of 2 if you ran a Pirate that summons another Pirate.
Rogues lost all their bullshit when Miracle was nerfed into the ground. I am hoping another deck on the level of Oil Rogue is found sometime within the lifespan of this expansion. Anub'arak is pretty bullshit if a Control Rogue deck becomes viable since he's a good win-condition if not dealt with.
I think you would be a fan of this thread.
http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/fan-creations/55013-fan-cards-to-push-control-rogue
This one is personally one of my favorites.
The real trouble with Rogues in the current meta (generally since Miracle with only a brief window of strength for Oil) is that the Rogue design, with combos, lends itself to tempo play. Rogue cards have to be played in bunches in order to activate the combo effect. That encourages a Rogue to empty her hand. Moreover, because you have to play 2 cards at a time, you need fast, cheap spells and minions. You need stuff like coin into Defias Ringleader; Backstab into SI:7 Agent, etc. If you play slow or expensive cards, you throw out most of the defining cards that make Rogue who she is: stuff like Eviscerate, Preparation, etc. Rogue is inherently fragile, because she uses her face to clear the board, and she can't play big stuff, because of her tempo issues, so she needs to be able to burst down opponents and fight for a rapid conquest of the board leading to quick, fast, lethal. The game has been moving away from this style of play for a long time. Antique Healbot was a disaster for Rogues. Sludge Belcher is bad for Rogues. Dr. Boom is nearly a deathknell. I have seen Rogues Sap Dr. Boom twice in a row! Rogues need some OP stuff in a hurry to become competitive again. Cutpurse is a cute idea that steps in the right direction, but it needs to be something usable. For example, a 2/2 that does something like combo, put 2 coins into your hand. Now we're talking. Rogue needs combo effects that are silly OP, reinforcing the theme of what Rogue is. Forget the rubbish kidnapper. How about a 6-mana 4/5 that removes target enemy minion and puts it into the Rogue's hand? That would be a worthy Rogue legendary. Rogue is also a class that could really afford to have secrets. It's already the most spell-heavy class. And secrets are very thematic. Valeera really needs some help. Right now, she sucks.
Its a sad day for rogue, and days to come. Blizzard typically is not upfront with mistakes and unlikely to change any existing cards/mechanics - for the better, and given the current state of rogues, it will need 'at least' another expansion to fix =(.
I miss those miracle days...I actually had 'fun' with that type of deck than a lot of established decks these days.
It is indeed a sad day when fans understand the class mechanics more than the designers of the game.
Legend Rogue, druid when lazy
actually, rogue is to me is one of the more well design classes. it's just harder to pull off than blizzard thought i think.
here's my theory:
each class has their specialty:
mage, damaging nukes, minions that supports or feed off said nukes, fireball, frostbolt, mana wyrm, antonidas, rhonin, flamewaker
warrior, built up armor, stall and slowly damage, take dmg and deal it back, can suck up dmg, shieldmaiden, whirlwind, shield block, bash, grommash
priest, heal bot, cards that feed off heals or manipulate heals, thought manipulation, thoughtsteal, flash heal, light of the naaru, holy champion, soulpriest
shaman, under cost nukes with big drawback with some cost reduction cards to make things lighter, ancestral calling, far sight, lightning storm, elemental destruction, neptulon,
paladins, durable minions, constant pressure, and creature pumps for more pressure, blessing of kings, blessing of might, murloc knight, muster for battle
hunter, snipers, trap setters, tribal synergy, explosive trap, freezing trap, powershot, deadly shot, kill command, ram wrangler
warlock, self damaging undercost minions, doom guard, dread infernal, flame imp, hellfire.
so what's rogue specialty? diversity and combo. rogue is the only class that so far each set when it comes out has one or two card that focus on a specific deck type and it can't be run anywhere else. take a look for example mid range pally and secret pally, they all run shielded mini bot, they all run muster for battle, they all run the same thing with some variety.
rogue is the only class that doesn't have that. you can't find a buccaneer in mill rogue and you are less likely to find beneath the grounds in oil rogue, and chances are you wont find shiv in any rogue deck except for miracle rogue. so what makes rogue so hard to balance? well, for starter, because it does cater to diversity, you can't just have each set focus on one deck type.... if you have an oil rogue oriented set, mill rogue, control rogue (it might exist), miracle rogue won't get anything and it will have to wait while other decks will have new toys that is focus on their focused theme.
so it's not that the rogue cards are generally bad or overpower, its the fact that the deck they can be run in doesnt exist yet and you dont want to introduce too much possibility early on, because it makes the game way unpredictable. think about it, you look at your opponent with a warrior deck, currently you are thinking, patron, dragon control, varian control, they all run similar cards but the guess work is limited.
now imagine if you get oil rogue, miracle rogue, mill rogue, control rogue, pirate rogue out all at once and enable them all at once within 2 expansion, a base set, and 2 adventure set... then the guess work for the rogue's opponent is now tougher and their mulligan is harder to decide....
and if you pay attention to the cards slowly release, you got combo and card draws in one class with massive dmg..... you got cost reduction and 0 spells that enable combo set up in the base set with auctioneer just helps enable it even faster... rogues are the jack of all trade and master of none, most of spell does dmg, but not as much as a mage while drawing more cards than a warrior........ priest was control, hunter was aggro... it was one deck for each class, and with each set release, each class gets one to two new types of deck.... rogue's cards are all over the place. you have oil, one or two pirate in GvG which dont go together, then you have gang up from BRM, which gave us mill........ in TGT, we have slower cards like anub which tries to push a slower less combo oriented format, and beneath the grounds which can be played in mill, and you have burgle..... which is a mini nef.... its like a worser thoughtsteal (jack of all trade master of none) which can play to a more unpredictable deck style that is about stealing the possible best of your opponent's attribute which could be a decktype.
so for me, the rogue isn't here for the short burst of excitement, its patiently bidding its time like a good rogue should, bidding its time to release all its potential at once.
only time will tell if i m right.....
Really, I don't get why so many people trust Blizzard about "balance". They don't give a damn about balance and powercreep (look Ice Rager). They just thought "Hey Anub'arak would be fun for Rogue !" and hop, they made it, without thinking more than 2 seconds about the class or balance.
That's why we have some complete bullshit decks like Patron Warrior (the most recent), Mech Mage (for 6 months) or Face Hunter (since so many time ...), and the classes like Priest, Shaman and Rogue that get completely abandonned.
Let's be honest, Rogue didn't get any competitive card since Beta. Even new neutrals are usually bad for Rogue or even completely counters the class. Tinker's Sharpsword Oil is a poorly designed card that somebody managed to make a deck with (kinda like Grim Patron, that is a bad card on its own). Blizzard doesn't give a damn about balance or meta. They just throw a bunch of cards in the game from time to time and get all the cash.
Sorry to tell you that but you are wrong.
Every Rogue deck runs (and MUST run) Eviscerate, SI:7 Agent, Backstab, Deadly Poison and Blade Flurry, and now even Preparation and Sprint. I'd even say Bloodmage Thalnos is a must-have in almost every Rogue deck.
There is far more diversity between Patron Warrior and Control Warrior, or between Freeze Mage, Tempo Mage and Mech Mage.
Plus your are speaking about inexisting and gimmicky decks. Mill Rogue has never been really serious, Control Rogue has never existed (and never will, sorry Anub'arak and Trade Prince Gallywix), and Pirate Rogue never worked (and this expansion won't help).
Right now Rogue has only one viable archetype : Oil Rogue. Would it hurt Blizzard just to give something to add to it ? They gave toys for Tempo Mage and Midrange Hunter, that were already working pre-TGT.
And most of all : Pirate, Mill and Control Rogue won't work. Why did they gave only shitty cards for those archetypes ? Nothing for Combo Rogue (a real drawing mechanics for example), nothing for Tempo Rogue (used to be a thing, 1 or 2 cards as strong as Imp Gang Boss or Flamewaker would make it viable again) or even Midrange Rogue (that could exist too).
To make Pirate Rogue work, Blizzard should add at least 7-8 more Pirates with more synergy (spawning mechanics, draw, etc).
For Control Rogue to work, Blizzard should add at least 10 more cards. Rogue would need some serious finisher (Anub'arak fills this role), but also real draw mechanics (let's be real, Sprint is trash), more survivability (Antique Healbot can't carry alone), some hard removal (Execute > Sap) and AoE (Consecration > Fan of Knives) AND more strong creatures (like Trade Prince Gallywix). This won't happen before 2020.
The problem with mill is that you often burn you opponent cards. If you happen to burn one Ambush, you basically just gave a card to your opponent and lost the 4/4. So that's not that benefitting for mill. And it's not an adventure, it's two. Naxx, BRM, GvG and TGT.
And people stop acting like mill was a serious deck !
Rogues in WoW could pickpocket.. after all, they are ... rogues.
With that in mind, WHY does the noble Priest class have the theft cards? Mind Control in particular. Yes, I know in WoW Priest had a MC spell. But, to me, it seems like thievery should be largely left to the Rogue class in HS.
Part of the problem might be Rogue's history. Before GvG, it was the most absurd class in the game. It had about 3 functioning archetypes, tempo, face, and miracle, and all of them were somewhat ridiculous. Prior to that, they had old miracle, and before that months and months of unstable, easily ridiculous rogue builds. Rogue is a class that, from a balance standpoint, is incredibly scary, and can function in so many different archetypes that giving them a tool for one might break something else.
How do you give Rogue good, fun to use, functional board clear that doesn't break Oil Rogue? How do you give Rogue good stall and heal that doesn't break mill?
Kkeegan's nonsense notwithstanding (saying 'ice rager is power creep' as your argument for blizzard not caring is basically shooting yourself in the foot from the start), Mill is a genuine archetype for rogue, and boasts ridiculous win percentages against slow decks.
How, from a balance perspective, do you give Rogue the tools to play a control archetype (one that was already pretty good at the start of GvG and hasn't lost much power, in all honesty. From testing then and now, control rogue plays and has winrates akin to midrange shaman just before TGT, and given that the deck was still popular and got very frequent legend seatings, that's nothing to sneeze at). Putting out fun, thematic cards that give Mill rogue an interesting board condition and otherwise provide a lot of different archetypes with tentatitve tools is a very nice way to go.
Giving Rogue things that are too strong will break the class and make the game incredibly unfun. It's happened before, and it can happen again. Rogue unfun decks have to be answered very differently than other unfun decks. Patron is answered with stall, board clear, large threats. Rogue is handled by going full face, hence a very gross period in the meta around may of 2014, which eventually resulted in the return of freeze mage. The approach of slowly giving them decent threats is a fine one to take, and in the meantime Rogue is still a top tier class, and with Shaman and Paladin on the rise, it's getting even better.
Sorry bud, just because you can say every type of rogue runs these cards (All Classic) doesn't counter the fact that all of the new cards since Classic are all over the place. Noctune has it right.
You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.
I cried when i saw rogue cards announced. I dont know what blizzard trying to do with that class. Take legendaries for example: Edvin was pretty good and feeled rogue'ish, combo theme etc. Then Gallywix... then Anubarak...... stop killing my favorite class blizzard, please.
1 minute silence
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
I enjoyed playing Tempo Rogue back in the day, when it was viable. Miracle Rogue...I spit on your haircut. Perhaps someone should look at that old list to see if it can be resurrected with newer cards. Let Miracle Rogue go ;). Oil is just a attempt to recreate the burst of Miracle.
In my opinion the so called Tempo Rogue was really a control deck, much like Zoo. But unlike typical control decks which (some wrongly think can only be late game) give up the early game, try to stabilize during mid-game and crush late, tempo and zoo start out trying to control the board early to crush mid. Zoo starts on the 1st turn.
Hell, Miracle was control. I have wondered if Emperor Thaurissan would enable Miracle to work again. Perhaps the timing gets all screwed up because of the card I shall not name being moved to a 6 drop. Even with Emperor enabling the end-game burst combo from before.
You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.
Lol, you didn't even understood what we were talking about, and come here to brag. So cute.
Edit : and then you don't even know the differences between Tempo, Control and Combo ... go back to Druid forums plz.
I agree with this to a certain extent. I do not know the exact amount of players Hearthstone has, but I can infer it is a substantial amount. Out of all the opinions that these players have, there will undeniably be a certain percentage of beneficial perspectives coming from players that the design team simply doesn't and could not be expected to have. It is the responsibility of the design team to find these perspectives, analyze them, and fold them into their understanding of the game - this is how a product improves.
So the true issue is not that some fans understand the game better than the designers - this is an expected and natural course for any product, particularly when it comes to games or apps like Hearthstone. The tragic flaw for a product is when the designers fail to take the appropriate initiative to seek objective criticism from the users of the product.
I will admit this is difficult to do with such a large and vocal fanbase. Sifting through the noise is difficult, and there is a lot of it. Finding the valid and necessary feedback from a large user base takes a lot of time and research to confirm. I would go so far as to say it would be difficult to make any change to the game without having some percentage of the community express negative feelings about it - regardless of whether their criticism is valid or not.
You guys should definitely try Aggro rogue, I'm having good results with it in this past week
Decklist please?
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes