People are jumping the gun way too much about blade flurry and rogue not having any healing...
I already have some decks in mind for Rogue that I feel confident will easily achieve legend.
Right now none of the classes stand out as being super strong, aggro has taken a decent hit and honestly I think with rogues new cards they are gonna be one of the top decks EVEN with the nerf to blade flurry.
None of the classes seem super strong? Lol Shaman is gonna be the new class to beat I think... "Let's give shaman so many good cards that they can't fit them all into one deck"
It's better to say the kind of rogue we enjoyed playing and have played for two years it's dead. There is little doubt about that. People here that think like that are just not interested in zoo rogue or any of that dumb raptor rubbish. It's not fun and it's not even good or fits rogue theme
You can "achieve" legend with meme decks. No one will bring rogue to tournaments anymore, even less than before.
they've been bitching about freeze for years & it stays untouchable, even more, they only lose scientist, which is nothing compared to the loss of healbot, better deathrattles, loatheb, boom, compared to the owl & bgh nerf. aids, and after that they nerf flurry to the ground
It is you who is underreacting (is that even a word?).
They nerfed the main reason rogue was still tier3 (lol, it was tier3 and they took away things): Blade Flurry. At the same time they introduced NOTHING to keep us at the previous tier3 power level.
The only thing that might work(it doesnt look too powerful either) is a minion-based rogue which most rogues dont want. We arent playing rogue to mulligan for low drops play on curve and maybe win, if we wanted to do that we'd be playing something else.
It is you who is underreacting (is that even a word?).
They nerfed the main reason rogue was still tier3 (lol, it was tier3 and they took away things): Blade Flurry. At the same time they introduced NOTHING to keep us at the previous tier3 power level.
The only thing that might work(it doesnt look too powerful either) is a minion-based rogue which most rogues dont want. We arent playing rogue to mulligan for low drops play on curve and maybe win, if we wanted to do that we'd be playing something else.
Oil was rolling out anyway, and miracle is not the only way to play rogue. C'thun rogue is going to be good.. so much synergy with shadowsteps and shadowcaster.
Even reno rogue could possibly be a thing. Let alone the strongest variant of rogue which could possibly be a raptor deathrattle.
Tempo rogue was there before miracle, it's originally how the class was designed, smaller creatures more combo based. Miracle was a mistake and since the beta they have been trying to get away from that playstyle. You know when Edwin had permanent stealth and questing adventurer was amazing? Now we have shadowstrike, xaril, shadowcaster, southsea whatever (+2 to weapon) that can really apply pressure early to mid game. Learn to adapt.
Paladins lost some of their biggest threats, druid got gutted, and we don't have to deal with the busted early game mad scientist haunted creeper bs.
So yeah rogues playstyle has changed, it does not mean the class is terrible. You haven't even played the new expansion yet.. raptor rogue might be tier 2 possibly tier 1 coming up.
I think cthun is going to be rampant this meta and rogue has the best anti cthun cards avail.
You guys are forgetting that this game is an esport. Rogue is a tier 1 deck in tournaments and tier 3 on ladder.
the blade flurry was nerfed because in tournaments rogue was too strong for what it did, on ladder a minion based rogue deck is going to be better than oil while in tournament play rogue will have to try a new style. Maybe casino yogg for fun, if you watched the stream today the rogue seemed to be able to handle itself quite well without being tuned.
It is you who is underreacting (is that even a word?).
They nerfed the main reason rogue was still tier3 (lol, it was tier3 and they took away things): Blade Flurry. At the same time they introduced NOTHING to keep us at the previous tier3 power level.
The only thing that might work(it doesnt look too powerful either) is a minion-based rogue which most rogues dont want. We arent playing rogue to mulligan for low drops play on curve and maybe win, if we wanted to do that we'd be playing something else.
Oil was rolling out anyway, and miracle is not the only way to play rogue. C'thun rogue is going to be good.. so much synergy with shadowsteps and shadowcaster.
Even reno rogue could possibly be a thing. Let alone the strongest variant of rogue which could possibly be a raptor deathrattle.
Tempo rogue was there before miracle, it's originally how the class was designed, smaller creatures more combo based. Miracle was a mistake and since the beta they have been trying to get away from that playstyle. You know when Edwin had permanent stealth and questing adventurer was amazing? Now we have shadowstrike, xaril, shadowcaster, southsea whatever (+2 to weapon) that can really apply pressure early to mid game. Learn to adapt.
Paladins lost some of their biggest threats, druid got gutted, and we don't have to deal with the busted early game mad scientist haunted creeper bs.
So yeah rogues playstyle has changed, it does not mean the class is terrible. You haven't even played the new expansion yet.. raptor rogue might be tier 2 possibly tier 1 coming up.
I think cthun is going to be rampant this meta and rogue has the best anti cthun cards avail.
I mostly agree with your C'thun statement, between the C'thun class card and it's strong ability to replay and copy minions I can see C'thun rogue being very good, but how do you suggest we get to late game? Aggro took a hit sure, but it's not gone and swarm decks look to be a thing. Actually Druid looks to have a very viable token deck and with Roar being un-nerfed can be quite dangerous if you leave things on the board. Fan won't be enough to keep they board clear while we build to our very power but slow win condition. More over Blade of C'thun will be terrible against aggro or token set ups.
I am not doubting your competence by the way, but earnestly want to know what your idea's are. I love playing rogue and quite frankly I am ready for a new variant. Was excited about control rogue, hopes dashed :(
You don't get it man. People play rogue because the playstyle is much more unique, fun and skillbased than any other class. Now they killed this theme that rogue pretty much always have had, and made it into yet another minionclass. C'Thun Rogue seems to be the only viable rogue deck, so every deck thats viable for rogue have to be built around ONE card, and it's not even close to the kind of rogue people want to play.
Well said. Oil rogue was my favourite deck by far and now I cant even play it, or anything that resembles it, even in wild
Did you watch the stream? The way rogue was played with yogg and cthun seemed very combo oriented as rogue players seem to enjoy.
I know yogg is super RNG but it could be a legitimate win con. Also even with just cthun the deck seems very similar to miracle but instead of dropping a charge minion for the win you drop a huge cthun for direct damage. I don't see how cthun damage is much different from old miracle rogue especially if you can drop it twice.
Also pretty sure if you shadow step cthun he keeps his stats which can be pretty devastating
Think about the concept of oil rogue. It was a deck that buffed a weapon for hitting face and exploding to damage with lots of combo initiators and an end game goal to burst your opponent.
Cthun rogue is very similar but easier to play. Now you don't have to worry about weapon charges as much and you can keep buffing cthun. You can play lots of cheap spells and use gadgetzan to cycle cards. Play taunts and removal for survivability. Because you use less face for removal you don't need as much heals.
I think the concept of miracle rogue is embodied in a miracle cthun deck but you guys are just stuck in the past of what you think miracle rogue should be and not what it can be.
I don't understand how you can't compare a cthun deck to a convo burst deck?
The point of Cthun is tobliterally build up to a huge burst turn.
Imagine playing a 25/25 cthun two or three turns in a row. If your opponent is not dead then you did something wrong.
Blade flurry is often used later in the game for ape removal and even at 4 mana it still does the job but imagine bursting face with it and then using cthun later to finish. Obviously it was play tested and they found rogue to be an efficient user of cthun and blade flurry hitting face and costing 2 was too good in such a deck.
The playstyle you all love is still here so I think you should wait till the expansion comes before losing hope.
It is you who is underreacting (is that even a word?).
They nerfed the main reason rogue was still tier3 (lol, it was tier3 and they took away things): Blade Flurry. At the same time they introduced NOTHING to keep us at the previous tier3 power level.
The only thing that might work(it doesnt look too powerful either) is a minion-based rogue which most rogues dont want. We arent playing rogue to mulligan for low drops play on curve and maybe win, if we wanted to do that we'd be playing something else.
Oil was rolling out anyway, and miracle is not the only way to play rogue. C'thun rogue is going to be good.. so much synergy with shadowsteps and shadowcaster.
Even reno rogue could possibly be a thing. Let alone the strongest variant of rogue which could possibly be a raptor deathrattle.
Tempo rogue was there before miracle, it's originally how the class was designed, smaller creatures more combo based. Miracle was a mistake and since the beta they have been trying to get away from that playstyle. You know when Edwin had permanent stealth and questing adventurer was amazing? Now we have shadowstrike, xaril, shadowcaster, southsea whatever (+2 to weapon) that can really apply pressure early to mid game. Learn to adapt.
Paladins lost some of their biggest threats, druid got gutted, and we don't have to deal with the busted early game mad scientist haunted creeper bs.
So yeah rogues playstyle has changed, it does not mean the class is terrible. You haven't even played the new expansion yet.. raptor rogue might be tier 2 possibly tier 1 coming up.
I think cthun is going to be rampant this meta and rogue has the best anti cthun cards avail.
Oh yeah sure,the 10 mana minion is going to be op in an aggro heavy meta. Herculean leaps of logic you got there.
Oil rogue is literally only based on getting burst from 2 cards, Tinkers oil and blade flurry? I don't understand how you think this is different?
If you never get tinkers then you don't win in oil rogue. Exact same concept but now cthun rogue has more minions for trading or going face and to me that feels more flexible. You still have card draw, preps and even blade flurry for ape removal so I don't see how it's much different? Now you don't have to rely on your weapon as much and you have more board presence for alternate win cons.
I literally threw this together in 5 min, this is a basic cthun rogue deck in my eyes.. it needs tweaking depending on how the meta turns out. And depends on how cards like shadowcaster really end up being.
no aoe removal but, your playing strong vanilla stat minions like c'thuns chosen, beckoner of evil, twilight elder etc, combined with strong single target removal with shadowstrike, eviscerate, backstab etc you will dominate any midrange/control deck.
You can literally shadowcaster any minion and get value. Azure drake? 1/1 that gives spellpower + draw a card, xaril 1/1 that gives 2 toxins, SYLVANAS!? 1/1 that steals a minion!? hell you can shadowcaster brann and use him later for C'thun.. HELL you can even shadowcaster c'thun if you are out of shadowsteps and he doesn't die (unlikely)
I mean shadowstep is even better, Play that 20/20 c'thun then shadowstep him back to your hand. now you have a 20 dmg nuke again NEXT turn
This deck could easily be turned into a miracle varient, sub out the azure drakes for gadget auct, add in 2 prep and your good to go..
The difference between combo Druid and oil rogue is basically the choices and complexity of decision making for rogues. The thing is if you play a gadgetzan miracle rogue cthun variant it will be just as complex in decision making as it is now.
You'll basically be drawing your deck most games and have full hands making it difficult to make the correct plays.
Imagine a deck that is only based on shadow step, blade of cthun and cthun as your combo pieces with no other cthun buffers and you still have a very similar and difficult to be play deck as oil rogue. You don't have to go minion based. The deck may be as high skill cap as any miracle rogue variant so I don't understand why everyone is judgin so early.
I literally threw this together in 5 min, this is a basic cthun rogue deck in my eyes.. it needs tweaking depending on how the meta turns out. And depends on how cards like shadowcaster really end up being.
no aoe removal but, your playing strong vanilla stat minions like c'thuns chosen, beckoner of evil, twilight elder etc, combined with strong single target removal with shadowstrike, eviscerate, backstab etc you will dominate any midrange/control deck.
You can literally shadowcaster any minion and get value. Azure drake? 1/1 that gives spellpower + draw a card, xaril 1/1 that gives 2 toxins, SYLVANAS!? 1/1 that steals a minion!? hell you can shadowcaster brann and use him later for C'thun.. HELL you can even shadowcaster c'thun if you are out of shadowsteps and he doesn't die (unlikely)
I mean shadowstep is even better, Play that 20/20 c'thun then shadowstep him back to your hand. now you have a 20 dmg nuke again NEXT turn
This deck could easily be turned into a miracle varient, sub out the azure drakes for gadget auct, add in 2 prep and your good to go..
Good to go? Maybe I just don't understand
There is no scenario where sylvanas is good here. This deck has almost no card draw, no healing, no taunts, no aoe, no sap. You could actually just lose the game on turn 2 if you don't have SI7.
How do you draw enough vs control or do anything vs aggro?
The difference between combo Druid and oil rogue is basically the choices and complexity of decision making for rogues. The thing is if you play a gadgetzan miracle rogue cthun variant it will be just as complex in decision making as it is now.
The hell are you talking about? Whats so complicated about playing every C'Thun buff minion on curve until you get to C'Thun?
The problem is with Rogue's survivability. Cards like Antique Healbot have been a staple for a long time as it allowed the class to keep trading with the hero power and prevented you from being killed off by rush decks. There just isn't a viable option for healing outside of Earthernring Farseer for Rogue now.
I get the whole C'Thun thing but you have to get to turn 10 earliest to use it. Rogue is not a strong class defensively and that is where it is falling down. Blade Flurry in the early to mid game could be used to clear irritating minions with high-ish attack when they were spammed out. Now it has to be a mid-late game play and the cost is so high that I'm not sure the mana left over will allow you to do the plays that you could do before.
It's all well and good saying that they were trying to take the class in a different direction. If that direction is leading to a pit of spikes with an annoying bastard shoving you in the back all the way, it's probably not good.
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People are jumping the gun way too much about blade flurry and rogue not having any healing...
I already have some decks in mind for Rogue that I feel confident will easily achieve legend.
Right now none of the classes stand out as being super strong, aggro has taken a decent hit and honestly I think with rogues new cards they are gonna be one of the top decks EVEN with the nerf to blade flurry.
None of the classes seem super strong? Lol Shaman is gonna be the new class to beat I think... "Let's give shaman so many good cards that they can't fit them all into one deck"
It's better to say the kind of rogue we enjoyed playing and have played for two years it's dead. There is little doubt about that. People here that think like that are just not interested in zoo rogue or any of that dumb raptor rubbish. It's not fun and it's not even good or fits rogue theme
You can "achieve" legend with meme decks. No one will bring rogue to tournaments anymore, even less than before.
they've been bitching about freeze for years & it stays untouchable, even more, they only lose scientist, which is nothing compared to the loss of healbot, better deathrattles, loatheb, boom, compared to the owl & bgh nerf. aids, and after that they nerf flurry to the ground
It is you who is underreacting (is that even a word?).
They nerfed the main reason rogue was still tier3 (lol, it was tier3 and they took away things): Blade Flurry. At the same time they introduced NOTHING to keep us at the previous tier3 power level.
The only thing that might work(it doesnt look too powerful either) is a minion-based rogue which most rogues dont want. We arent playing rogue to mulligan for low drops play on curve and maybe win, if we wanted to do that we'd be playing something else.
You guys are forgetting that this game is an esport. Rogue is a tier 1 deck in tournaments and tier 3 on ladder.
the blade flurry was nerfed because in tournaments rogue was too strong for what it did, on ladder a minion based rogue deck is going to be better than oil while in tournament play rogue will have to try a new style. Maybe casino yogg for fun, if you watched the stream today the rogue seemed to be able to handle itself quite well without being tuned.
Proud creater of 'hand' rogue
Did you watch the stream? The way rogue was played with yogg and cthun seemed very combo oriented as rogue players seem to enjoy.
I know yogg is super RNG but it could be a legitimate win con. Also even with just cthun the deck seems very similar to miracle but instead of dropping a charge minion for the win you drop a huge cthun for direct damage. I don't see how cthun damage is much different from old miracle rogue especially if you can drop it twice.
Also pretty sure if you shadow step cthun he keeps his stats which can be pretty devastating
easily legend...
Think about the concept of oil rogue. It was a deck that buffed a weapon for hitting face and exploding to damage with lots of combo initiators and an end game goal to burst your opponent.
Cthun rogue is very similar but easier to play. Now you don't have to worry about weapon charges as much and you can keep buffing cthun. You can play lots of cheap spells and use gadgetzan to cycle cards. Play taunts and removal for survivability. Because you use less face for removal you don't need as much heals.
I think the concept of miracle rogue is embodied in a miracle cthun deck but you guys are just stuck in the past of what you think miracle rogue should be and not what it can be.
I don't understand how you can't compare a cthun deck to a convo burst deck?
The point of Cthun is tobliterally build up to a huge burst turn.
Imagine playing a 25/25 cthun two or three turns in a row. If your opponent is not dead then you did something wrong.
Blade flurry is often used later in the game for ape removal and even at 4 mana it still does the job but imagine bursting face with it and then using cthun later to finish. Obviously it was play tested and they found rogue to be an efficient user of cthun and blade flurry hitting face and costing 2 was too good in such a deck.
The playstyle you all love is still here so I think you should wait till the expansion comes before losing hope.
Oil rogue is literally only based on getting burst from 2 cards, Tinkers oil and blade flurry? I don't understand how you think this is different?
If you never get tinkers then you don't win in oil rogue. Exact same concept but now cthun rogue has more minions for trading or going face and to me that feels more flexible. You still have card draw, preps and even blade flurry for ape removal so I don't see how it's much different? Now you don't have to rely on your weapon as much and you have more board presence for alternate win cons.
I literally threw this together in 5 min, this is a basic cthun rogue deck in my eyes.. it needs tweaking depending on how the meta turns out. And depends on how cards like shadowcaster really end up being.
no aoe removal but, your playing strong vanilla stat minions like c'thuns chosen, beckoner of evil, twilight elder etc, combined with strong single target removal with shadowstrike, eviscerate, backstab etc you will dominate any midrange/control deck.
You can literally shadowcaster any minion and get value. Azure drake? 1/1 that gives spellpower + draw a card, xaril 1/1 that gives 2 toxins, SYLVANAS!? 1/1 that steals a minion!? hell you can shadowcaster brann and use him later for C'thun.. HELL you can even shadowcaster c'thun if you are out of shadowsteps and he doesn't die (unlikely)
I mean shadowstep is even better, Play that 20/20 c'thun then shadowstep him back to your hand. now you have a 20 dmg nuke again NEXT turn
This deck could easily be turned into a miracle varient, sub out the azure drakes for gadget auct, add in 2 prep and your good to go..
The difference between combo Druid and oil rogue is basically the choices and complexity of decision making for rogues. The thing is if you play a gadgetzan miracle rogue cthun variant it will be just as complex in decision making as it is now.
You'll basically be drawing your deck most games and have full hands making it difficult to make the correct plays.
Imagine a deck that is only based on shadow step, blade of cthun and cthun as your combo pieces with no other cthun buffers and you still have a very similar and difficult to be play deck as oil rogue. You don't have to go minion based. The deck may be as high skill cap as any miracle rogue variant so I don't understand why everyone is judgin so early.
The problem is with Rogue's survivability. Cards like Antique Healbot have been a staple for a long time as it allowed the class to keep trading with the hero power and prevented you from being killed off by rush decks. There just isn't a viable option for healing outside of Earthernring Farseer for Rogue now.
I get the whole C'Thun thing but you have to get to turn 10 earliest to use it. Rogue is not a strong class defensively and that is where it is falling down. Blade Flurry in the early to mid game could be used to clear irritating minions with high-ish attack when they were spammed out. Now it has to be a mid-late game play and the cost is so high that I'm not sure the mana left over will allow you to do the plays that you could do before.
It's all well and good saying that they were trying to take the class in a different direction. If that direction is leading to a pit of spikes with an annoying bastard shoving you in the back all the way, it's probably not good.