As a relatively new player this is one of TWO Paladin legend cards I have... yet putting him in a deck seems to backfire so often I am at the point where I'd rather put something else in. Even getting to round 8 is hell against certain decks (Pirate Warrior, etc) so I never get a chance to really use it anyway.
Thoughts?
I am currently using two Ivory Knight simply because you get some health back, might just get a very useful spell, and if they are buffed before dropping them they can be pretty powerful.
In a couple of recent matches the only way I ended up with enough health to come back after early round beatdowns was due to them.
Part of why he's so good is because of the weapon as well. Half of the removal you mentioned still leave you with a 5/3 weapon in the end, so you still gain value from him even if he's removed.
Honestly, he's more valuable in control as you can bait that removal before laying him. Either that, or you can try to sneak him into aggro, and hope they recognize a faster deck and remove other minions first. IMO he's one of the most powerful legendaries in Hearthstone.
hahaha dude what? Those 'counters' are true for every single minion in the game, except maybe for battlecry minions or other stuff that immediately effects the game?
He's widely seen as one of the best cards in the game. It's a game winner vs any zoo / aggro deck. And when playing vs control it's just important to bait out removal before you play him, and if they destroy it you'll still have a 5/3 weapon.
Tirion is a good card, even if he does get hard removed. Something you need to keep in mind- If you're playing paladin, people are going to assume you probably have him in the deck, and they are going to hold their hard removals to get rid of him if they can. The same thing goes for any deck where people know you're typically going to be running a minion that can really swing the game (like Rag, Aya, etc).
Your choice is basically to try and pull that removal out of your opponents hand with other serious threats before playing him, or wait until you can follow him up with another big threat of your own if they do remove him. And sometimes you just have to play him and hope they don't have the answer.
Of all those cards, only Sap, Blastcrystal Potion and Hex are played in the current meta (and hex not even that much as aggro shaman doesn't run it).
This means it's good against control (renolock, dragon priest, jade druid) but bad against the rest, and because it's a high cost minion, it has been cut from some anyfin paladin lists.
If you want to build a N'zoth paladin deck though, it's the one card you want to have. I guess it's decent too if you're playing midrange/hand-buff style.
Personally, I've always liked tirion, but it's up to you
As a relatively new player this is one of TWO Paladin legend cards I have... yet putting him in a deck seems to backfire so often I am at the point where I'd rather put something else in. Even getting to round 8 is hell against certain decks (Pirate Warrior, etc) so I never get a chance to really use it anyway.
Thoughts?
I am currently using two Ivory Knight simply because you get some health back, might just get a very useful spell, and if they are buffed before dropping them they can be pretty powerful.
In a couple of recent matches the only way I ended up with enough health to come back after early round beatdowns was due to them.
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I opened golden Tirion, crafted Nzoth and I havent played nzoth pally yet sinse the meta is not favorable to this deck. I had the same thoughts as you but I'd never DE Tirion it's just too good. Feels like committing a crime. Just keep it, it's important addition to any pala deck. And pala time will come sooner or later (in standard).
Tirion Fordring is a great card. On its own probably still the highest value card in the game. The only real counter are polymorph effects or entomb (but that is not a cheap removal).And that was still a 1 for 1 trade in terms of card advantage (but still a tempo loss). And Sap probably also because rogue will likely exploit the tempo gain for a win.
In all other instances you need to make more effort to remove tirion. And that results usually in at least a 2 for 1 trade in favor of Tirion. For example, to use execute you need to damage Tirion twice (because of Divine shield). That might cost you a weapon charge, a minion and/or a whirlwind effect and Execute on top of that. Additionally,you still have one of the best weapons in hand after tirion died.
In short, Tirion is a top tier legendary that will mostly give you a lot of value even when he is removed.
It's not because it's good in it's own right (which it obviously IS), but because it punishes the lack of removal on the opponent's side.
It's a statistical thing. Most staple non-battlecry cards are in decks because of their high punish factors. When evaluating cards such as Tirion or Sylvanas never look at a card's value in a vacuum or over 3 games, but instead consider the following aspects:
a) consider a balanced deck in average hands to have a ~50% winrate when Tirion gets answered; now find out how many times an unanswered Tirion gave you an autowin (or at least a tempo swing). If it's at least 55% - congratulations, Tirion is statistically increasing your winrate.
b) consdier decks aren't usually built to be played for 5 games and then discarded; when judging the usefulness of a card always keep in mind the long run and the hypothetical grind. I always ask myself "ok so I've been beaten by 3 aggro decks on turn 6 in a row, but is the meta face decks today and is Tirion useless or is it a small sample size?". And then, usually, after the next 10 or so games it turns out there's been only 3 face decks and the rest is ramp druid.
c) consider the amount of threats and removals in each deck. E.g. most warrior control decks have a number of removals matching almost exactly the number of threats in an average midrange deck. If you remove Tirion for something more tempo based - congratulations, you will see your minion stay on board but woe to the next Sylvanas, Ysera, Ragnaros you play that game.
Tirion is good. Paladin is bad, and that's the issue. Cards like Tirion, require a proper board battle to have taken place in order to seal the deal for the player if played on the right time. Paladin's current game plan is 'pray for an opponent's bad hand' since it has zero ways to claim board dominance (and keep it).
You can't judge a card in a void. You need to judge it according to what it's worth for the current meta for your deck. Tirion right now is slow, completely irrelevant to board state (since a ping+6 damage isn't really tough to come across now) and the Ashbringer it gives will mean that you will get more face damage in the later turns.
Statwise, he is amazing, but unfortunately he suffers from his class weakness right now and he isn't as good as he used to. If midrange makes a comeback (or any Paladin for that matter) Tirion will definitely find the place in the meta.
I agree that its not as good as it used to be (mainly due to every player running weapon removal). But its still a stample in every control and midrange paladin deck. There is just no better card to put in an 8 mana slot. Ragnaros can backfire aswell even stronger.
Paladin usually runs both Tirion and Lightlord (and Firelord too), both of which HAVE to be removed by the other guy. And Tirion wants to be removed so you get 15 free damage out. So he acts like an 8 mana retard magnet, which might seem wierd, but he's used by everyone because it's that important.
Tirion is so good, your opponents play around him even when you don't have him. But nothing beats the satisfaction of dropping Tirion Fordring right after the second Hex.
I don't know what to make of this card. Everyone says if you play Paladin you must use it.
But I find it is a mixed blessing at best to put him in a deck (at least, in the current meta.)
He is a big cost card and very, very vulnerable to cheap card counters. Off the top of my head:
Priest - Entomb
Shaman - Hex
Warlock - Blastcrystal Potion
Warrior - Brawl or Execute
Mage - Polymorph
Druid - Mulch
Rogue - Sap
I'm sure there are others I'm missing.
As a relatively new player this is one of TWO Paladin legend cards I have... yet putting him in a deck seems to backfire so often I am at the point where I'd rather put something else in. Even getting to round 8 is hell against certain decks (Pirate Warrior, etc) so I never get a chance to really use it anyway.
Thoughts?
I am currently using two Ivory Knight simply because you get some health back, might just get a very useful spell, and if they are buffed before dropping them they can be pretty powerful.
In a couple of recent matches the only way I ended up with enough health to come back after early round beatdowns was due to them.
Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions.
Part of why he's so good is because of the weapon as well. Half of the removal you mentioned still leave you with a 5/3 weapon in the end, so you still gain value from him even if he's removed.
Honestly, he's more valuable in control as you can bait that removal before laying him. Either that, or you can try to sneak him into aggro, and hope they recognize a faster deck and remove other minions first. IMO he's one of the most powerful legendaries in Hearthstone.
Isn't this same argument true of every other high-cost legendary though, OP? Antonidas gets Sapped just as easily as Tirion does.
hahaha dude what? Those 'counters' are true for every single minion in the game, except maybe for battlecry minions or other stuff that immediately effects the game?
He's widely seen as one of the best cards in the game. It's a game winner vs any zoo / aggro deck. And when playing vs control it's just important to bait out removal before you play him, and if they destroy it you'll still have a 5/3 weapon.
Tirion is a good card, even if he does get hard removed. Something you need to keep in mind- If you're playing paladin, people are going to assume you probably have him in the deck, and they are going to hold their hard removals to get rid of him if they can. The same thing goes for any deck where people know you're typically going to be running a minion that can really swing the game (like Rag, Aya, etc).
Your choice is basically to try and pull that removal out of your opponents hand with other serious threats before playing him, or wait until you can follow him up with another big threat of your own if they do remove him. And sometimes you just have to play him and hope they don't have the answer.
Tirion welcomes death with open arms. We need another 6/6 from N'zoth after all.
This disclaimer
Will cleanse any sense of innuendo or sarcasm
From the comments that might actually make you think
And will also insult your intelligence at the same time.
So, if it sounds sarcastic, don't take it seriously.
If it sounds dangerous,
Do not try this at home or at all.
And if it offends you, just don't read it.
I opened golden Tirion, crafted Nzoth and I havent played nzoth pally yet sinse the meta is not favorable to this deck. I had the same thoughts as you but I'd never DE Tirion it's just too good. Feels like committing a crime. Just keep it, it's important addition to any pala deck. And pala time will come sooner or later (in standard).
Tirion Fordring is a great card. On its own probably still the highest value card in the game. The only real counter are polymorph effects or entomb (but that is not a cheap removal).And that was still a 1 for 1 trade in terms of card advantage (but still a tempo loss). And Sap probably also because rogue will likely exploit the tempo gain for a win.
In all other instances you need to make more effort to remove tirion. And that results usually in at least a 2 for 1 trade in favor of Tirion. For example, to use execute you need to damage Tirion twice (because of Divine shield). That might cost you a weapon charge, a minion and/or a whirlwind effect and Execute on top of that. Additionally,you still have one of the best weapons in hand after tirion died.
In short, Tirion is a top tier legendary that will mostly give you a lot of value even when he is removed.
Why is it good you ask?
It's not because it's good in it's own right (which it obviously IS), but because it punishes the lack of removal on the opponent's side.
It's a statistical thing. Most staple non-battlecry cards are in decks because of their high punish factors. When evaluating cards such as Tirion or Sylvanas never look at a card's value in a vacuum or over 3 games, but instead consider the following aspects:
a) consider a balanced deck in average hands to have a ~50% winrate when Tirion gets answered; now find out how many times an unanswered Tirion gave you an autowin (or at least a tempo swing). If it's at least 55% - congratulations, Tirion is statistically increasing your winrate.
b) consdier decks aren't usually built to be played for 5 games and then discarded; when judging the usefulness of a card always keep in mind the long run and the hypothetical grind. I always ask myself "ok so I've been beaten by 3 aggro decks on turn 6 in a row, but is the meta face decks today and is Tirion useless or is it a small sample size?". And then, usually, after the next 10 or so games it turns out there's been only 3 face decks and the rest is ramp druid.
c) consider the amount of threats and removals in each deck. E.g. most warrior control decks have a number of removals matching almost exactly the number of threats in an average midrange deck. If you remove Tirion for something more tempo based - congratulations, you will see your minion stay on board but woe to the next Sylvanas, Ysera, Ragnaros you play that game.
*The tier guide will return*
Tirion is good. Paladin is bad, and that's the issue. Cards like Tirion, require a proper board battle to have taken place in order to seal the deal for the player if played on the right time. Paladin's current game plan is 'pray for an opponent's bad hand' since it has zero ways to claim board dominance (and keep it).
You can't judge a card in a void. You need to judge it according to what it's worth for the current meta for your deck. Tirion right now is slow, completely irrelevant to board state (since a ping+6 damage isn't really tough to come across now) and the Ashbringer it gives will mean that you will get more face damage in the later turns.
Statwise, he is amazing, but unfortunately he suffers from his class weakness right now and he isn't as good as he used to. If midrange makes a comeback (or any Paladin for that matter) Tirion will definitely find the place in the meta.
I agree that its not as good as it used to be (mainly due to every player running weapon removal). But its still a stample in every control and midrange paladin deck. There is just no better card to put in an 8 mana slot. Ragnaros can backfire aswell even stronger.
Paladin usually runs both Tirion and Lightlord (and Firelord too), both of which HAVE to be removed by the other guy. And Tirion wants to be removed so you get 15 free damage out. So he acts like an 8 mana retard magnet, which might seem wierd, but he's used by everyone because it's that important.
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My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
Maybe you better play freeze mage if you don't want your minions to be countered. I don't get your point.
Don't test me child!
Tirion is so good, your opponents play around him even when you don't have him. But nothing beats the satisfaction of dropping Tirion Fordring right after the second Hex.
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