Obviously its a little early to make assumptions but considering what we have seen so far I am currious if anyone has any thoughts on where pally might be in standard after WOG releases. Obviously we are still going to be quite baseless in part because we have not seen the whole set but with what is rotating and what we have seen so far I am curious as to what deck if any will still be viable after standard starts up.
Aggro - So long as Divine Favor does not get nerfed I think pally aggro will remain a viable deck to some degree.
Midrange - We no longer will have muster, shieldbot, or quartermaster. However we do have the new steward coming in which might be a midrange tactic. Merloc Knight might also pick up for some midrange tactics considering Piloted Shreader will no longer be in standard.
Control - We still have strong midrange / control legend minions. We also have a lot of good tools for playing control but pally control seems to always be sort of a situational depending on what the meta looks like kind of a thing.
Combo - I dont know of any combo decks for pally other than Anyfin which is going to drop Old Merk. Combo pally is probably on the backburner unless and until something else pops up.
So I guess I am just looking to throw around some assumptions and see what people are thinking so far when it comes to pally.
Honestly I think it's still going to be good, there's keeper still, murloc knight, that new steward card that you mentioned. It's just good that it's not going to be as OP as before
As long as secret and murloc paladin ends up dead in the dumpster, I'm more than willing to make Paladin the worst class in HS for the WoG period. Paladin dominance for the past 2/3 of a year has been ridiculous.
I think Ragnaros the lightlord might be one of the strongest healing tools in the game. think how good lay on hands is, but instead of 3 cards - you gain an 8-8 and the ability to repeatedly heal yourfself. If you dont die, your opponent has to waste 8 damage on him - making him a total of 16 healing, and 8-8 worth of trading.
This could spark some new control type decks, since equality combos are better without things like shredder around.
honestly, who knows where pala will be - just as paladin is getting a weaker early game without muster / shieldbot - most other classes are as well
I am similarly interested in the new lightlord but at the same time I think he is going to tend to be a lot more control oriented than just a curve topper to any pally deck like Tirion is. I think he is going to be a lot more controllable than the original Rag + he can attack to boot. There is also N'Zoth which I think is worth considering because that could be ridiculous value to recover Tirion / Sylvanas but the problem there is that there are so few other deathrattle minions offhand that would fall into that for pally.
As it stands, my assumptions are going to fall on aggro and or control. Pally might just not have the tools for midrange tactics moving forward without a lot of its rotating cards it seems like the more challenging way to play pally moving forward.
It seems like Blizzard is really pushing two deck types for Paladin this expansion: Control and Flood/Token/Inspire. Love em both.
Control
I really hope this is the strongest new Paladin deck. Ragnaros, Lightlord is looking awesome for this deck, and Forbidden Healing looks like it could fit in Reno Paladin.
Token/Inspire
I really want this deck to work. Stand Against Darkness could be great for this deck. Not a super powerful card, but in this deck it could work. Not all cards can be homeruns, and this is a pretty cool minor card. When INspire first arrived, people were considering Silver Hand Knight for flood decks, and if there is ANY Recruit synergy, this card is probably better on 5 mana than Silver Hand Knight.
They pushed this deck in TGT but failed by Silver Hand Regent being too weak. Once again Steward of Darkshire being too weak to play on curve will ruin this deck. A little more understandable since Steward can be used in pure AGGRO decks, which I feel is not the intention for this card, but all the more reason for why Silver Hand Regent should have been a 2/4. Or to design the card for only non-aggro decks, like SHR was.
Just give us the useful 3 drop needed to build this deck around.
Flamewaker - 3 mana 2/4. The text protects itself, if there ever was a card that shouldn't be a 2/4 this is it. Silver Hand Regent and Steward of Darkshire have to combo just to get a board and still be weak to board clears while you wait another turn to actually use the tokens. Flamewaker text is also much, MUCH easier to activate, than a once per turn, weak, tempo losing, 2 mana Hero Power.
Imp Gang Boss - Another card that begs the question: Why the hell are the Paladin 3 drops 3/3 instead of 2/4? Imp Gang Boss, guaranteed to eat a silence or be 3/5+ of stats for only 3 mana. Way too much value to get for simply playing it on curve, no requirements.
Seriously makes no sense. The cards that don't need to stick around to use the text have great health. The cards that absolutelyneed to stick to get any use of the text are weak, making them bad cards, cause they don't have an immediate impact, and can't stick around to make any impact. I really like the idea of this deck. Give it to us or stop teasing it.
Murloc Flood
I feel this deck plays very similar to the Token/Flood deck. Continually flood the board with weaklings and eventually some will stick, however I feel the Morloc version is the aggro, early draw dependent deck, while the Token Silver Hand Recruit version is the more midrange/controlling version.
Vilefin Inquisitor is great for this deck. As someone who actually played the Murloc Flood deck before the charge combo, I can say Hero Powering a SHR was always the worst, and even once or twice could lose you the game. Now that they will be Murlocs, this deck might actually have a chance. Though since it is such an early game combo, it will probabaly never be all that consistent, similar to mech mage. But a great fun deck to see supported even if it isn't all that competitive.
OLD DECKS
I actually like that the cards we have seen don't seem to support any of the current Paladin decks. Nothing to help aggro, maybe Steward, but I really think people are overestimating her. Nothing helps the Secret Paladin, or Murloc Charge Combo. Nothing for Midrange decks, which in all honesty no deck should be Midrange without some other theme to restrict it. Just having best on curve in every mana slot does not a fun deck make.
Early Game / Owl / BGH
The only problem I'm seeing is our early game is terrible, which is why pre-GvG paladin was so bad. And if they remove Owl and BGH, Paladins are going to hurt more from that than other classes. Owl and BGH are practically Spells for Paladin. Paladin has been SO EXTREMELY NEGLECTED in the removal / spell category, that minions with effects are our spells. And we still haven't seen any early game to replace Shielded Minibot or Muster for Battle. Where is our control 1 drop? Vilefin is for 1 deck only.
If the last 4 cards aren't an amazing early game minion, recruit synergy, decent weapon, a mage-level damage spell, and/or some decent removal, it might just end up being the same as pre-GvG: Too weak of an early game to compete with anything.
LOE vs WOG
Also just an outside observation: LOE had 2/45 cards with RNG elements and that is why it is considered the best set of cards they have ever released. Already this set has 15 last time I checked, around 25% of the set is RNG. NOT LOOKING GOOD.
With losing muster,shredder,avenge,muster,juggler nerf (probably),coghammer,loatheb,belcher,boom,minibot ?
Also they created very strong tech card.
Secret pala belongs to wild only : D.
For pala,i still expect some 2 mana 3 dmg removal or good 2 drop,or good weapon (better than argent lance),or something,or in standard we will go to museum : D
Reword: because 'It's a secret' *anti-climatic hint*
[card]Steward of Darkshire[/card] is interesting to me but I still have a lot of concerns about it. It costs more than the removal that generally kills it, its kind of a combo like card similar to how Knife Juggler is but it costs more than he does while being arguably more build arround than he is.
I am afraid that Steward is a terrible trap because its so build arround but its also not really expected to live a turn generally speaking. 3/3 for 3 with no battlecry / deathrattle is where I am concerned about this card so is it more like an 8 mana combination style of card? I am sorry to be somewhat of a realist here but minions dont generally last long in this game and generally without a battlecry or deathrattle you need to be getting a stat efficient minion which this is not.
I want to be optimistic about it but I actually see a lot of problems to overcome for it to actually work which is why as things stand, I am being somewhat objective but expecting it to go nowhere.
Maybe if the meta slow down enough, Steward+SAD will be a viable combo (divine shield is quite strong). If midrange doesnt work, control might be viable (I want to play with healadin again tbh).
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'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Steward is very overrated. I really douby it will see play.
In aggro, it just does not fit the curve. In Midrange, it is vastly inferieur to quartermaster which was also rarely game winning. People talk a lot about steward + SAD, but let's face it, thos combo for 2 cards and 8 mana will not win you the game alone, far from it (just compare it, for also 8 mana to muster + quartermaster which is largely superior)
This is kind of where I have to assume it stands right now as well. Its just too vulnerable and too build around still. Its great that the pally hero ability and token gen work with it but it still seems like a glorified Hobgoblin.
You can drop it on curve, and the expectation is that it is dead next turn. Its not cheaper than or equal in cost to the removal that kills it and it generates no value without living a turn early or comboed in one turn late.
I hate to say it but realistically its going to be terrible.
Im really looking forward to beefing up Dragonpally. Im thinking consort + Deathwing, Dragonlord is going to be extremely fun and im going to push that on the ladder until i get it refined enough. Really hoping for more control oriented stuff, less healing and less buffing.
Yeah, I think our options are Murlocs.... I don't even think Blizzard has a clue. Well besides keeping Paladin out of a preview game since that would only show that there isn't much there.
I guess the plan is some kind of divine shield setup....maybe aggro pally and thus why they didn't nerf Divine Favor.
We'll have to see. A lot of cards and the answers as much as anything might be in the neutral cards.
Not much to help old decks stay good. But the future decks we are getting look like amazing, thoughtful, non-cancerous fun.
A little disappointed they didn't support Control a bit more, but none of these cards seem like aggro cards, which is great.
Even the cards that people are thinking fit Aggro decks, I feel like they push a more Midrange style. Vilefin Inquisitor is a one drop, and the text is about Hero Powering, which isn't really an Aggro plan, Hero Powering in a Paladin deck is a Midrange or Control gameplan. Steward of Darkshire is a combo card, can't really be played on curve, so also not that great for aggro decks. Selfless Hero is the only card that truly supports aggro decks, but it is not exclusive to aggro, it's just a solid, non-broken, good 1 drop. It even requires a bit of finesse to gets it's text value.
I probably post a bit more here later but all in all, while maybe not the strongest, we shall have the most fun.
Healadin Control
Reno/Elise Fatigue
Token Combo/Midrange Flood
Murloc Flood
I feels these are the decks that our new cards support. Doesn't that look like amazing fun? I sure think so.
The direction is great. Amazingly great, like job very well done Blizzard. If we are weak they can buff us in 3-4 months.
The funny thing is that while not agreeing you basically made a pretty good argument for itaekwon. So apparently they don't help control and they don't help aggro. That's....actually pretty bad. It'd be fine if you argued why these cards support the midrange, but all you did was argue whey they don't support aggro. Those aren't the same things. Could easily just mean the cards suck and don't support anything.
Also I'm pretty sure Shaman players are having the most fun coming out of this, not Paladin. Maybe those kinds of decks will work out, but who knows. Not exactly a post of optimism.
The funny thing is that while not agreeing you basically made a pretty good argument for itaekwon. So apparently they don't help control and they don't help aggro. That's....actually pretty bad. It'd be fine if you argued why these cards support the midrange, but all you did was argue whey they don't support aggro. Those aren't the same things. Could easily just mean the cards suck and don't support anything.
Also I'm pretty sure Shaman players are having the most fun coming out of this, not Paladin. Maybe those kinds of decks will work out, but who knows. Not exactly a post of optimism.
Who said they don't support control? 2/4 decks I listed as the decks they are supporting are Control decks. I only stated that I wish they would have supported Control decks even more than they did. That doesn't mean they are going to be bad.
You take lack of aggro support to be a bad thing based on performance and nothing else. Direction is important. I think not supporting aggro is a good thing. They are unfun decks. Seems like you take it as a negative as a deck isn't being supported, but I take it as a positive, as I see it as a refinement of the Paladin direction. Aggro not being supported means that other decks are. Direction is about the future of this class and that is just as important as what is strong this expansion.
Blizzard will be more likely to release potentially broken things in the last expansion of the year as it is safer, less time to be broken if it does become so. So even if these Token/Flood decks don't work out this time, they will push if further next expansion, and that is a far greater payoff than simply tagging on a few minions to some older decks. New decks sometimes take a few expansions to work out.
Did you miss the part about the 4 decks I listed as being supported? I think Healadin, Reno/Elise, and Murlocs are going to be strong. Token Combo will probably take one more expansion to be strong, but looks like great fun if it ever works. C'Thun has a chance also, but I'm not really all that excited about it, C'Thun is a pretty bland, but most likely effective, Midrange deck IMO. Murlocs in particular will actually be VERY STRONG. And Control is Control, it will be strong enough for smart, patient players to take it to Legend even though it will probably not be a popular "Tier 1" deck.
When I look at all of the healing that I can now do with Rag and Forbidden healing, it seems like its possible to just heal yourself until your opponent concedes.
2x Healing Touch = 12hp
2x Lay on Hands = 16hp
1 proc of Ragnaros, Lightlord = 8hp
2x Guardian of Kings = 12hp
2x 10 mana Forbidden Healing = 20hp
1x Reno Jackson (near the end of the game once you've drawn your doubles)= 29hp
2x Earthen Ring Farseer = 6hp
TOTAL = 133hp (not including brewmaster combos with reno, etc)
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I played Paladin before it was cool.
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Obviously its a little early to make assumptions but considering what we have seen so far I am currious if anyone has any thoughts on where pally might be in standard after WOG releases. Obviously we are still going to be quite baseless in part because we have not seen the whole set but with what is rotating and what we have seen so far I am curious as to what deck if any will still be viable after standard starts up.
So I guess I am just looking to throw around some assumptions and see what people are thinking so far when it comes to pally.
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Honestly I think it's still going to be good, there's keeper still, murloc knight, that new steward card that you mentioned. It's just good that it's not going to be as OP as before
As long as secret and murloc paladin ends up dead in the dumpster, I'm more than willing to make Paladin the worst class in HS for the WoG period. Paladin dominance for the past 2/3 of a year has been ridiculous.
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Good points. Personally, I'm looking forward to the return of Healadin but I'd also love a midrange deck with Steward of Darkshire
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
It seems like Blizzard is really pushing two deck types for Paladin this expansion: Control and Flood/Token/Inspire. Love em both.
Control
I really hope this is the strongest new Paladin deck. Ragnaros, Lightlord is looking awesome for this deck, and Forbidden Healing looks like it could fit in Reno Paladin.
Token/Inspire
I really want this deck to work. Stand Against Darkness could be great for this deck. Not a super powerful card, but in this deck it could work. Not all cards can be homeruns, and this is a pretty cool minor card. When INspire first arrived, people were considering Silver Hand Knight for flood decks, and if there is ANY Recruit synergy, this card is probably better on 5 mana than Silver Hand Knight.
They pushed this deck in TGT but failed by Silver Hand Regent being too weak. Once again Steward of Darkshire being too weak to play on curve will ruin this deck. A little more understandable since Steward can be used in pure AGGRO decks, which I feel is not the intention for this card, but all the more reason for why Silver Hand Regent should have been a 2/4. Or to design the card for only non-aggro decks, like SHR was.
Just give us the useful 3 drop needed to build this deck around.
Flamewaker - 3 mana 2/4. The text protects itself, if there ever was a card that shouldn't be a 2/4 this is it. Silver Hand Regent and Steward of Darkshire have to combo just to get a board and still be weak to board clears while you wait another turn to actually use the tokens. Flamewaker text is also much, MUCH easier to activate, than a once per turn, weak, tempo losing, 2 mana Hero Power.
Imp Gang Boss - Another card that begs the question: Why the hell are the Paladin 3 drops 3/3 instead of 2/4? Imp Gang Boss, guaranteed to eat a silence or be 3/5+ of stats for only 3 mana. Way too much value to get for simply playing it on curve, no requirements.
Seriously makes no sense. The cards that don't need to stick around to use the text have great health. The cards that absolutely need to stick to get any use of the text are weak, making them bad cards, cause they don't have an immediate impact, and can't stick around to make any impact. I really like the idea of this deck. Give it to us or stop teasing it.
Murloc Flood
I feel this deck plays very similar to the Token/Flood deck. Continually flood the board with weaklings and eventually some will stick, however I feel the Morloc version is the aggro, early draw dependent deck, while the Token Silver Hand Recruit version is the more midrange/controlling version.
Vilefin Inquisitor is great for this deck. As someone who actually played the Murloc Flood deck before the charge combo, I can say Hero Powering a SHR was always the worst, and even once or twice could lose you the game. Now that they will be Murlocs, this deck might actually have a chance. Though since it is such an early game combo, it will probabaly never be all that consistent, similar to mech mage. But a great fun deck to see supported even if it isn't all that competitive.
OLD DECKS
I actually like that the cards we have seen don't seem to support any of the current Paladin decks. Nothing to help aggro, maybe Steward, but I really think people are overestimating her. Nothing helps the Secret Paladin, or Murloc Charge Combo. Nothing for Midrange decks, which in all honesty no deck should be Midrange without some other theme to restrict it. Just having best on curve in every mana slot does not a fun deck make.
Early Game / Owl / BGH
The only problem I'm seeing is our early game is terrible, which is why pre-GvG paladin was so bad. And if they remove Owl and BGH, Paladins are going to hurt more from that than other classes. Owl and BGH are practically Spells for Paladin. Paladin has been SO EXTREMELY NEGLECTED in the removal / spell category, that minions with effects are our spells. And we still haven't seen any early game to replace Shielded Minibot or Muster for Battle. Where is our control 1 drop? Vilefin is for 1 deck only.
If the last 4 cards aren't an amazing early game minion, recruit synergy, decent weapon, a mage-level damage spell, and/or some decent removal, it might just end up being the same as pre-GvG: Too weak of an early game to compete with anything.
LOE vs WOG
Also just an outside observation: LOE had 2/45 cards with RNG elements and that is why it is considered the best set of cards they have ever released. Already this set has 15 last time I checked, around 25% of the set is RNG. NOT LOOKING GOOD.
Where it belongs. To the mid-range.
it's a secret.
[card]Steward of Darkshire[/card] is interesting to me but I still have a lot of concerns about it. It costs more than the removal that generally kills it, its kind of a combo like card similar to how Knife Juggler is but it costs more than he does while being arguably more build arround than he is.
I am afraid that Steward is a terrible trap because its so build arround but its also not really expected to live a turn generally speaking. 3/3 for 3 with no battlecry / deathrattle is where I am concerned about this card so is it more like an 8 mana combination style of card? I am sorry to be somewhat of a realist here but minions dont generally last long in this game and generally without a battlecry or deathrattle you need to be getting a stat efficient minion which this is not.
I want to be optimistic about it but I actually see a lot of problems to overcome for it to actually work which is why as things stand, I am being somewhat objective but expecting it to go nowhere.
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None of your business...
Maybe if the meta slow down enough, Steward+SAD will be a viable combo (divine shield is quite strong). If midrange doesnt work, control might be viable (I want to play with healadin again tbh).
'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact'
Sherlock Holmes
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Im really looking forward to beefing up Dragonpally. Im thinking consort + Deathwing, Dragonlord is going to be extremely fun and im going to push that on the ladder until i get it refined enough. Really hoping for more control oriented stuff, less healing and less buffing.
Yeah, I think our options are Murlocs.... I don't even think Blizzard has a clue. Well besides keeping Paladin out of a preview game since that would only show that there isn't much there.
I guess the plan is some kind of divine shield setup....maybe aggro pally and thus why they didn't nerf Divine Favor.
We'll have to see. A lot of cards and the answers as much as anything might be in the neutral cards.
We just literally got dumped on.
Vision without action is a dream. Action without vision is a nightmare.
I feels these are the decks that our new cards support. Doesn't that look like amazing fun? I sure think so.
^
The funny thing is that while not agreeing you basically made a pretty good argument for itaekwon. So apparently they don't help control and they don't help aggro. That's....actually pretty bad. It'd be fine if you argued why these cards support the midrange, but all you did was argue whey they don't support aggro. Those aren't the same things. Could easily just mean the cards suck and don't support anything.
Also I'm pretty sure Shaman players are having the most fun coming out of this, not Paladin. Maybe those kinds of decks will work out, but who knows. Not exactly a post of optimism.
When I look at all of the healing that I can now do with Rag and Forbidden healing, it seems like its possible to just heal yourself until your opponent concedes.
2x Healing Touch = 12hp
2x Lay on Hands = 16hp
1 proc of Ragnaros, Lightlord = 8hp
2x Guardian of Kings = 12hp
2x 10 mana Forbidden Healing = 20hp
1x Reno Jackson (near the end of the game once you've drawn your doubles)= 29hp
2x Earthen Ring Farseer = 6hp
TOTAL = 133hp (not including brewmaster combos with reno, etc)
I played Paladin before it was cool.