The Azshara Banana Company introduces Knuckles, the super-powered gorilla who can KO (almost) any opponent with just 2 punches! Get your tickets for a ring-side seat fast; you won't want to miss this fight!
As a quick introduction: it is an OTK hunter deck (yes, they can exist) with a unique way to finish a game with The Beast Within and a super buffed Knuckles (I have got him upwards of 40 attack so could punch down a Warrior or druid with a tonne of armour, and do it through taunt too). It is not going to be the most effective OTK deck out there, but it does have the advantage that the opponent is very unlikely to know what they're up against.
Also, if you enjoyed my Azshara Banana Company deck description from a little while back, then you might enjoy this one as well.
Edit: attached an image showing a poor Big Priest meeting the might of a 41 attack Knuckles. There was a satisfying red glow of 'what the heck was that card' around Knuckles as the victory screen came up.
How exactly do you get him that high? Get another Emeriss via Stitched Tracker? I assumed Dire Frenzy would play a role here but no. I suppose it would telegraph your win condition, so thats why it is not there? Seems like there needs to be tons of work to achieve the combo. Not trying to diss the deck, im just trying to understand how you get there ;-)
How exactly do you get him that high? Get another Emeriss via Stitched Tracker? I assumed Dire Frenzy would play a role here but no. I suppose it would telegraph your win condition, so thats why it is not there? Seems like there needs to be tons of work to achieve the combo. Not trying to diss the deck, im just trying to understand how you get there ;-)
The dream chain of events is 2xSmuggler's Crate (+4/4), Zul'jin (+4/4 again), 2xTrogg Beastrager (+2/2), Emeriss (x2), which would make him a (3+4+4+2)x2 = 26/26. Of course you won't pull off all of that every time but there is also the possibility of Stitched Tracker giving a second (and very rarely a third) Emeriss. Then you have bothThe Beast Withins which if there's 2 minions out effectively doubles the damage (and each adds +1/1). Plus of course you have the hunter hero power so a much smaller Knuckles will do most of the time.
It is certainly a lot of work and I never claimed it was a strong deck. It can win though.
As for telegraphing it, I expect most of my opponents anticipated a King Krush, which admittedly would need less work, but hey, Knuckles can punch through taunts.
That is not an OTK deck. You are required to have the opponent present a minion on his side of the board from a previous turn. An OTK deck cannot depend from specific board states from previous turns, it needs to be able to generate the 30 Damage in the Combo turn regardless of board state, including when the opponent has a clean board.
It is a fun idea though. I would probably put Tundra Rhino in there to make it an OTK.
Well it usually kills the opponent in 1 turn. I mean, by definition that's a '1 turn kill', but whatever. That's all just semantics. Occasionally you are against a deck that won't play minions but that is exceedingly rare, especially if they are expecting King Krush when their best defense is a taunt minion.
As for the rhino, the issue is it is another beast, which can accidentally absorb the hand buffs. Plus if you expect a minion or two to be played by the opponent anyway you are better off having the mana to spend on both The Beast Withins + hero power since attacking minions is just as good as the face.
Well it usually kills the opponent in 1 turn. I mean, by definition that's a '1 turn kill', but whatever. That's all just semantics. Occasionally you are against a deck that won't play minions but that is exceedingly rare, especially if they are expecting King Krush when their best defense is a taunt minion.
As for the rhino, the issue is it is another beast, which can accidentally absorb the hand buffs. Plus if you expect a minion or two to be played by the opponent anyway you are better off having the mana to spend on both The Beast Withins + hero power since attacking minions is just as good as the face.
That is the thing about OTK decks, they don't usually kill the opponent in one turn. Every single game, no matter what order you draw your cards in, without depending on Random effects, without requiring specific board setups, OTK decks always manage to output 30+ Damage in a single turn from the hand. Your deck is simply a deck that can sometimes OTK the opponent, which is the same as almost every single deck in the game. Under certain circumstances, you will have the option to OTK the opponent.
Anyway, then I guess you can run Thaurissan and Muck Hunter. This would allows you to get two minions on the opponent's side and the discounts needed to do everything in a single turn.
Potato po-tah-to. Whatever you want to call it, the deck is built to facilitate a 1-turn kill under very likely circumstances.
That could work too. The hard part is judging how many pieces is right for the hand buff and how high you want to set the max damage (i.e. is busting through armour important enough to want to do). I do like having Smuggler's Crate because you can just play it whenever and Zul'jin will recast it while he helps clear the board and buy more time.
You certainly don't need more than 13 health as almost nothing has more than 12 attack, but sometimes you have to whack into big minions and I would worry that 6 health (from 2x3 attack swapped) is too low to reliably get the second hit. Giving 1-drops via Gravelsnout Knight would help, but doesn't prevent your opponent having a large target.
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I'll try a few versions to see which functions best.
Well it usually kills the opponent in 1 turn. I mean, by definition that's a '1 turn kill', but whatever. That's all just semantics. Occasionally you are against a deck that won't play minions but that is exceedingly rare, especially if they are expecting King Krush when their best defense is a taunt minion.
As for the rhino, the issue is it is another beast, which can accidentally absorb the hand buffs. Plus if you expect a minion or two to be played by the opponent anyway you are better off having the mana to spend on both The Beast Withins + hero power since attacking minions is just as good as the face.
That is the thing about OTK decks, they don't usually kill the opponent in one turn. Every single game, no matter what order you draw your cards in, without depending on Random effects, without requiring specific board setups, OTK decks always manage to output 30+ Damage in a single turn from the hand. Your deck is simply a deck that can sometimes OTK the opponent, which is the same as almost every single deck in the game. Under certain circumstances, you will have the option to OTK the opponent.
Anyway, then I guess you can run Thaurissan and Muck Hunter. This would allows you to get two minions on the opponent's side and the discounts needed to do everything in a single turn.
By this logic, Mecha'thun decks are not OTKs because they require that your opponent does not play Dirty Rat. Every OTK has counters. This may be more easily countered than others, but that doesn't make it any less of an OTK.
OTK Decks are not required to prevent disruption of the Hand/Deck/Graveyard/Removed From Play, or any other element of the game that requires the opponent to use specifically designed Tools.
The Board is the one element that you cannot depend upon when creating and OTK deck because that is the one element of pretty much any Card Game that the opponent does not require specific Tools to disrupt.
Any minion, spell, weapon can be used to disrupt the Board. The purpose of an OTK deck is to use a strategy that allows the player to win the game without having to worry about the opponent disrupting whatever you had on the board that could present a kill. The deck is always made in order to avoid giving the option for the opponent to stop your Combo by removing your board. This is the basic premise of the OTK decks.
OTK decks are not required to be invulnerable to Hand/Deck/Etc disruption, they simple need to avoid Board requirements because that is the element of the board that the opponent can disrupt every game. They cannot disrupt the other elements unless they have specific Tools in the deck to do so.
Do secrets count as board disruption because Potion of Polymorph could stop nearly all OTKs if timed well. There are minions that can too (e.g. Swamp King Dred can ruin lots).
I understand the logic behind your definition, but I suspect you have overthought it a bit. Most people draw a line between Control and OTK by whether they plan a specific kill in 1 turn or not. What details lie in there for disruption don't change the deck's plan, and it is the plan that matters (at least to me).
While the hydra example makes a point I think it is a misleading one. That is an example of a very specific scenario in which a deck can 'accidentally' do 30+ damage in 1 turn, whereas the real question is the reverse: whether very specific scenarios that deny 30+ damage stop a deck being an OTK deck?
In the case of my deck, if I draw my whole deck and survive and do the requisite set-up (so far so OTK), Knuckles will have 30+ attack. Now it is quite possible for the opponent to never play a minion, but such scenarios are rare and I believe I am justified in going into games expecting a minion to appear sooner or later. In much the same way, a Mecha'thun deck goes into games with a reasonable expectation that when all the set-up is complete the opponent will not do an unlikely thing that denies the kill (e.g. play Potion of Polymorph).
I think the most pertinent point is this: to my eyes my opponent having a minion on board is NOT a specific board state requirement. It is a likely occurrence. If the deck required something specific about the minion then I would agree with you, but it doesn't. The vast majority of opposing minions and the vast majority of opposing decks lead to the scenario when I can deal 30+ damage in 1 turn just by drawing and playing cards as the deck is designed to. If that does not count as an OTK, then I fear your definition is so restrictive that nothing can actually be called an OTK deck.
It counts as a deck that can (probably often) OTK people, but not an OTK deck, which can ALWAYS OTK. And believe me, there A LOT of OTK decks. It's my favourite strategy in Card Games, and thankfully, there are plenty of OTK deck possibilities in this game. Your deck just happens not to be one. It's a cool strategy to make use of a pretty fun card, it just doesn't meet the OTK deck criteria. Although I will be likely make a few changes to make it an OTK deck and play it :D.
I suspect neither of us wanted this to go this far so I will cut it here. Perhaps to your disappointment I will continue to call any deck whose plan is to kill the opponent in 1 turn an OTK deck, but I am sure you understand that is because of differing definitions rather than either of us being wrong per se.
Much more importantly, have fun with your (bona fide OTK) variant of the deck! If you have any suggestions about its construction do let me know.
Had the same idea with knuckles when The beast within was released. I never pulled knuckles though so could never try it out.
But i think you are missing out by not using one crazed alchemist. I mean, just one emeriss on a vanilla knuckles and swap will give you 8 more attack on that alone. And your example with 26 attack would actually be 68 attack after chemist. you would hit for 69 and then 70 for 139 total damage.
If you actually played emeriss 3 times with double stiched tracker, knuckles would be 136 after swap and would then hit for 137 + 138 = 275 total.
Could be the final piece of the OTK puzzle ;)
Ps: Gravelsnout knight is a great way to force a minion on opponents board for 1 mana. And there are many 1 drops in the wild pool that survies damage with divine shield or summons something when they die, so you could really highroll.
Anyway knuckles + alcehmist + gravelsnout into potenial double beast within (if opponent already had 1 minion on board or you highrolled with gravelsnout) on turn 10 seems nice. And if you could hold the coin you could garantee the combo even on a empty board. Knuckles + alchemist + double gravelsnout into double beast within.
Had the same idea with knuckles when The beast within was released. I never pulled knuckles though so could never try it out.
But i think you are missing out by not using one crazed alchemist. I mean, just one emeriss on a vanilla knuckles and swap will give you 8 more attack on that alone. And your example with 26 attack would actually be 68 attack after chemist.
Seems like the final piece of the puzzle ;)
Ps: Gravelsnout knight is a great way to force a minion on opponents board for 1 mana. And there are many 1 drops in the wild pool that survies damage with divine shield or summons something when they die, so you could really highroll.
Anyway knuckles + alcehmist + gravelsnout into potenial double beast within (if opponent already had 1 minion on board) on turn 10 seems nice. And if you could hold the coin you could garantee the combo even on a empty board. Knuckles + alchemist + double gravelsnout into double beast within.
Thanks for the input.
I think 26 -> 34 with just 1 Emeriss and 1 Beast Within (52 -> 68 if you use both beasts within/2 Emeriss) so Crazed Alchemist isn't that important if using the Smuggler's Crates. There's clearly a bunch of different ways to build it and forcing minions with Gravelsnouts seems the most important part, but you don't want too much of the deck being dead cards until the final combo.
One of the key points with the big discussion with DiamondDM13 was the need for the opponent to play a minion. I have never encountered anyone yet (in about 30 games) who didn't and hence why I disagreed with their definition of OTK (at a practical level at least). Consequently I suspect the Gravelsnouts would be there to make it a true OTK deck but ultimately be unnecessary dead cards.
Having said all of that I don't want to sound too defensive of my own strategy. Other variants might be stronger and I will try them out but from experience with the deck simple additions of the suggested cards will only make survival more difficult (this is hunter after all!).
Oh yes, i definitely agree that gravelsnouts would make the deck perform worse, i imagine it is really hard to survive as it is. That was just the way to make it a true OTK.
I would however consider one alchemist since it would mean you could get away with playing 1-2 fewer buffs to get knuckles into the 25-30 range which would mean lethal in many games.
That is not an OTK deck. You are required to have the opponent present a minion on his side of the board from a previous turn. An OTK deck cannot depend from specific board states from previous turns, it needs to be able to generate the 30 Damage in the Combo turn regardless of board state, including when the opponent has a clean board.
It is a fun idea though. I would probably put Tundra Rhino in there to make it an OTK.
Emperor as well
It's a funny idea though. Reminds me of my linecracker otk deck. No one expects stuff like this. Go fourth my friend! Ruin people's day!
If I owned the card id play with it. Definitely not something id craft.
Do secrets count as board disruption because Potion of Polymorph could stop nearly all OTKs if timed well. There are minions that can too (e.g. Swamp King Dred can ruin lots).
I understand the logic behind your definition, but I suspect you have overthought it a bit. Most people draw a line between Control and OTK by whether they plan a specific kill in 1 turn or not. What details lie in there for disruption don't change the deck's plan, and it is the plan that matters (at least to me).
A summoned minion is a minion on the board. (Edit: Forgot to add, but a played minion is just a part of summoned minions, it's a minion that was summoned from the hand by the player paying it's mana cost.)
The definition is as is because otherwise, almost any deck in any Card Game would be an OTK deck. Almost any deck can, by multiple random circumstances, enter a situation in which they can deal a 30 Damage blow.
Any Control Shaman can be considered an OTK deck if they include Volcano, because there is a chance that somehow the opponent might have a 10 HP Bittertide Hydra and you now can deal the 30 Damage. I mean, you did do 30 Damage from hand with Volcano.
Obviously this is not the case. Again, almost any deck can do an OTK, a One Turn Kill, because due to the ridiculous amount of permutations any deck and it's opponent can interact, will eventually lead to a percentage of games in which random elements like up to give the One Turn Kill condition.
However, when it comes to an OTK deck, this is specific only to decks that are capable of doing so every game. As in, whenever you play an OTK deck, if you draw the deck, in any order, and you manage to survive until you drew your full deck, you will always be able to output 30+Directed Damage, that you can target the hero even if forced to go against taunts (or instantly destroy the opponent), without any specific board state requirements (meaning you cannot be required to have a specific opponent board or yours, hence why C'Thun is never an OTK deck unless you can clean the opponent's board in that same turn before C'Thun).
And the line is much further. Control is a deck focused on removal and survival tools, which after stabilisation, tends to either exhaust the opponent or slowly stomp the opponent with big bombs, threats, late game.
OTK is just a part of Combo decks, which are decks created around a specific combinations of cards that when played yield a massive advantage to the player. OTK decks are the part of these decks whose massive advantage is the 30+Damage output or instant enemy Kill.
Running swamp dredd on quest mage is the most hilarious shit!!! #getfuckt
Playing around with emeriss i know one of the major problems is being able to survive the turn after you play it, since it does no impact to the board.
I would perhaps consider an alternative route without emeriss and running double goblin prank instead.
With both beast from within in hand you only need to get knuckles to 15 attack to kill a none armored up opponent. Chemist could give you the flexibility to pull that of with varies buffs. you would only need 4+4 + swap =15 with both beast within in hand.
Playing around with emeriss i know one of the major problems is being able to survive the turn after you play it, since it does no impact to the board.
I would perhaps consider an alternative route without emeriss and running double goblin prank instead.
With both beast from within in hand you only need to get knuckles to 15 attack to kill a none armored up opponent. Chemist could give you the flexibility to pull that of with varies buffs. you would only need 4+4 + swap =15 with both beast within in hand.
There is usually time to play Emeriss safely the turn after Zul'jin, who should have cleared the board and played a Freezing Trap, and gained 5 armour. Plus to double the buffs played by Zul'jin you want to play it that way around anyway.
The Chemist is starting to sound like a versatile choice though, that could be used to help with survival if the extra damage isn't going to be needed.
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The Azshara Banana Company introduces Knuckles, the super-powered gorilla who can KO (almost) any opponent with just 2 punches! Get your tickets for a ring-side seat fast; you won't want to miss this fight!
As a quick introduction: it is an OTK hunter deck (yes, they can exist) with a unique way to finish a game with The Beast Within and a super buffed Knuckles (I have got him upwards of 40 attack so could punch down a Warrior or druid with a tonne of armour, and do it through taunt too). It is not going to be the most effective OTK deck out there, but it does have the advantage that the opponent is very unlikely to know what they're up against.
Also, if you enjoyed my Azshara Banana Company deck description from a little while back, then you might enjoy this one as well.
Edit: attached an image showing a poor Big Priest meeting the might of a 41 attack Knuckles. There was a satisfying red glow of 'what the heck was that card' around Knuckles as the victory screen came up.
How exactly do you get him that high? Get another Emeriss via Stitched Tracker? I assumed Dire Frenzy would play a role here but no. I suppose it would telegraph your win condition, so thats why it is not there? Seems like there needs to be tons of work to achieve the combo. Not trying to diss the deck, im just trying to understand how you get there ;-)
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The dream chain of events is 2xSmuggler's Crate (+4/4), Zul'jin (+4/4 again), 2xTrogg Beastrager (+2/2), Emeriss (x2), which would make him a (3+4+4+2)x2 = 26/26. Of course you won't pull off all of that every time but there is also the possibility of Stitched Tracker giving a second (and very rarely a third) Emeriss. Then you have both The Beast Withins which if there's 2 minions out effectively doubles the damage (and each adds +1/1). Plus of course you have the hunter hero power so a much smaller Knuckles will do most of the time.
It is certainly a lot of work and I never claimed it was a strong deck. It can win though.
As for telegraphing it, I expect most of my opponents anticipated a King Krush, which admittedly would need less work, but hey, Knuckles can punch through taunts.
Well it usually kills the opponent in 1 turn. I mean, by definition that's a '1 turn kill', but whatever. That's all just semantics. Occasionally you are against a deck that won't play minions but that is exceedingly rare, especially if they are expecting King Krush when their best defense is a taunt minion.
As for the rhino, the issue is it is another beast, which can accidentally absorb the hand buffs. Plus if you expect a minion or two to be played by the opponent anyway you are better off having the mana to spend on both The Beast Withins + hero power since attacking minions is just as good as the face.
the requirement of "your opponent has a minion" doesn't make it not be an otk deck; you're being pedantic.
Formerly Sneeds. Twitch merge locked me out of my old account :(
Potato po-tah-to. Whatever you want to call it, the deck is built to facilitate a 1-turn kill under very likely circumstances.
One option I've seen with Knuckles combos before was using a Crazed Alchemist to flip the stats so it would do 31 with both The Beast Withins only off of the Emeriss buff. With a tick of Emperor Thaurissan, you could play a few Gravelsnout Knights or something to guarantee minions.
That could work too. The hard part is judging how many pieces is right for the hand buff and how high you want to set the max damage (i.e. is busting through armour important enough to want to do). I do like having Smuggler's Crate because you can just play it whenever and Zul'jin will recast it while he helps clear the board and buy more time.
You certainly don't need more than 13 health as almost nothing has more than 12 attack, but sometimes you have to whack into big minions and I would worry that 6 health (from 2x3 attack swapped) is too low to reliably get the second hit. Giving 1-drops via Gravelsnout Knight would help, but doesn't prevent your opponent having a large target.
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I'll try a few versions to see which functions best.
By this logic, Mecha'thun decks are not OTKs because they require that your opponent does not play Dirty Rat. Every OTK has counters. This may be more easily countered than others, but that doesn't make it any less of an OTK.
Do secrets count as board disruption because Potion of Polymorph could stop nearly all OTKs if timed well. There are minions that can too (e.g. Swamp King Dred can ruin lots).
I understand the logic behind your definition, but I suspect you have overthought it a bit. Most people draw a line between Control and OTK by whether they plan a specific kill in 1 turn or not. What details lie in there for disruption don't change the deck's plan, and it is the plan that matters (at least to me).
Very inventive deck. I like it. Congrats for coming out with such idea!
While the hydra example makes a point I think it is a misleading one. That is an example of a very specific scenario in which a deck can 'accidentally' do 30+ damage in 1 turn, whereas the real question is the reverse: whether very specific scenarios that deny 30+ damage stop a deck being an OTK deck?
In the case of my deck, if I draw my whole deck and survive and do the requisite set-up (so far so OTK), Knuckles will have 30+ attack. Now it is quite possible for the opponent to never play a minion, but such scenarios are rare and I believe I am justified in going into games expecting a minion to appear sooner or later. In much the same way, a Mecha'thun deck goes into games with a reasonable expectation that when all the set-up is complete the opponent will not do an unlikely thing that denies the kill (e.g. play Potion of Polymorph).
I think the most pertinent point is this: to my eyes my opponent having a minion on board is NOT a specific board state requirement. It is a likely occurrence. If the deck required something specific about the minion then I would agree with you, but it doesn't. The vast majority of opposing minions and the vast majority of opposing decks lead to the scenario when I can deal 30+ damage in 1 turn just by drawing and playing cards as the deck is designed to. If that does not count as an OTK, then I fear your definition is so restrictive that nothing can actually be called an OTK deck.
Thanks! It is always interesting what you can come up with when you ask what can be made with a few unused cards.
I suspect neither of us wanted this to go this far so I will cut it here. Perhaps to your disappointment I will continue to call any deck whose plan is to kill the opponent in 1 turn an OTK deck, but I am sure you understand that is because of differing definitions rather than either of us being wrong per se.
Much more importantly, have fun with your (bona fide OTK) variant of the deck! If you have any suggestions about its construction do let me know.
Had the same idea with knuckles when The beast within was released. I never pulled knuckles though so could never try it out.
But i think you are missing out by not using one crazed alchemist. I mean, just one emeriss on a vanilla knuckles and swap will give you 8 more attack on that alone. And your example with 26 attack would actually be 68 attack after chemist. you would hit for 69 and then 70 for 139 total damage.
If you actually played emeriss 3 times with double stiched tracker, knuckles would be 136 after swap and would then hit for 137 + 138 = 275 total.
Could be the final piece of the OTK puzzle ;)
Ps: Gravelsnout knight is a great way to force a minion on opponents board for 1 mana. And there are many 1 drops in the wild pool that survies damage with divine shield or summons something when they die, so you could really highroll.
Anyway knuckles + alcehmist + gravelsnout into potenial double beast within (if opponent already had 1 minion on board or you highrolled with gravelsnout) on turn 10 seems nice. And if you could hold the coin you could garantee the combo even on a empty board. Knuckles + alchemist + double gravelsnout into double beast within.
Thanks for the input.
I think 26 -> 34 with just 1 Emeriss and 1 Beast Within (52 -> 68 if you use both beasts within/2 Emeriss) so Crazed Alchemist isn't that important if using the Smuggler's Crates. There's clearly a bunch of different ways to build it and forcing minions with Gravelsnouts seems the most important part, but you don't want too much of the deck being dead cards until the final combo.
One of the key points with the big discussion with DiamondDM13 was the need for the opponent to play a minion. I have never encountered anyone yet (in about 30 games) who didn't and hence why I disagreed with their definition of OTK (at a practical level at least). Consequently I suspect the Gravelsnouts would be there to make it a true OTK deck but ultimately be unnecessary dead cards.
Having said all of that I don't want to sound too defensive of my own strategy. Other variants might be stronger and I will try them out but from experience with the deck simple additions of the suggested cards will only make survival more difficult (this is hunter after all!).
Oh yes, i definitely agree that gravelsnouts would make the deck perform worse, i imagine it is really hard to survive as it is. That was just the way to make it a true OTK.
I would however consider one alchemist since it would mean you could get away with playing 1-2 fewer buffs to get knuckles into the 25-30 range which would mean lethal in many games.
Anyway, have fun in ranked :)
Emperor as well
It's a funny idea though. Reminds me of my linecracker otk deck. No one expects stuff like this. Go fourth my friend! Ruin people's day!
If I owned the card id play with it. Definitely not something id craft.
Fun > Meta
Running swamp dredd on quest mage is the most hilarious shit!!! #getfuckt
Fun > Meta
Playing around with emeriss i know one of the major problems is being able to survive the turn after you play it, since it does no impact to the board.
I would perhaps consider an alternative route without emeriss and running double goblin prank instead.
With both beast from within in hand you only need to get knuckles to 15 attack to kill a none armored up opponent. Chemist could give you the flexibility to pull that of with varies buffs. you would only need 4+4 + swap =15 with both beast within in hand.
There is usually time to play Emeriss safely the turn after Zul'jin, who should have cleared the board and played a Freezing Trap, and gained 5 armour. Plus to double the buffs played by Zul'jin you want to play it that way around anyway.
The Chemist is starting to sound like a versatile choice though, that could be used to help with survival if the extra damage isn't going to be needed.