I think it's no surprise to anyone that Piloted Shredder is one of the most, if not the most, popular 4-drop. And it's pretty difficult to remove... so I got to thinking. What 3-drop minions can actually beat a Shredder by themselves (without being combo'd with other cards, like perhaps Blackwing Technician)? And especially proactively?
I'd be interested to hear what people think about Scarlet Crusader in this case. It is weak to some pretty obnoxious things like hero powers or Flamewaker, but uncontested it trades evenly with Shredder without any help (as long as the Shredder doesn't drop minions with 4 health or cards like Shielded Minibot and Haunted Creeper)
Would that be enough to make Crusader a viable card? I think at least for players without lots of cards, it could. The only other 3-drop I can think of off hand that can beat a Shredder by itself is Aldor Peacekeeper... but you wouldn't play that on curve like I'm thinking about anyway.
I think that Scarlet crusader would not be that good because if you look at the decks that run shredder they have the ability to pop the shield and kill it like hunter, but a lot of decks might not be able to deal with it like druid. I would try it. What deck were you thinking about putting it in?
Hmm... you think Hunter would be good against it? Haunted Creeper is obviously a nightmare for it and some lucky knife juggles with Unleash the Hounds could be a problem, but otherwise it would usually go 2-for-1 still, wouldn't it? I would've thought Druid would be good against it considering its hero power and cards like Swipe or even Wrath for card draw.
I am mostly thinking of cheap free-to-play decks or perhaps Shaman (since it kind of lacks in 3-drops minus mech synergy) and Zoolock-- although that's pretty retro now. Maybe even aggro Paladin, although it's probably too slow compared to Wolf rider.
I think that Scarlet crusader would not be that good because if you look at the decks that run shredder they have the ability to pop the shield and kill it like hunter, but a lot of decks might not be able to deal with it like druid. I would try it. What deck were you thinking about putting it in?
Druids cant deal with Scarlet Crusader? When did they lose their hero power?
But anyway, with the new 2 drops that are coming with TGT I don't think Piloted Shredder is going to be nearly as auto-include as it currently is (although it might take a while for it to die down) due to cards like Darnassus AspirantLance BearerArgent Watchman etc. due to their downsides.
I find the best 3 drop to deal with shredder is actually flying machine. Turn 3 flying machine into turn 4 velen + inner fire allows you to trade fairly evenly with the shredder. Also if you can find a way to get divine shield from a previous thoughtsteal the value is even better!
I think that Scarlet crusader would not be that good because if you look at the decks that run shredder they have the ability to pop the shield and kill it like hunter, but a lot of decks might not be able to deal with it like druid. I would try it. What deck were you thinking about putting it in?
Druids cant deal with Scarlet Crusader? When did they lose their hero power?
But anyway, with the new 2 drops that are coming with TGT I don't think Piloted Shredder is going to be nearly as auto-include as it currently is (although it might take a while for it to die down) due to cards like Darnassus AspirantLance BearerArgent Watchman etc. due to their downsides.
Darnassus Aspirant, Lance Bearer sucks but so does Novice Engineer, Captain's Parrot and if you have board control then Doomsayer and Explosive Sheep screws you even harder. Argent Watchman isn't even that bad because after turn 4 using hero power is not as bad as earlier turns. Even if it is bad, that's only a small portion of RNG, and piloted shredder remains one of the best 4 drops if not the best.
I think that Scarlet crusader would not be that good because if you look at the decks that run shredder they have the ability to pop the shield and kill it like hunter, but a lot of decks might not be able to deal with it like druid. I would try it. What deck were you thinking about putting it in?
Druids cant deal with Scarlet Crusader? When did they lose their hero power?
But anyway, with the new 2 drops that are coming with TGT I don't think Piloted Shredder is going to be nearly as auto-include as it currently is (although it might take a while for it to die down) due to cards like Darnassus AspirantLance BearerArgent Watchman etc. due to their downsides.
I'm confused by the Druid comment, too. Haha I agree there's going to be a lot of changes coming to the Shredder; although I'm not sure that there are enough bad 2-drops to psudeo-nerf it.
Druids cant deal with Scarlet Crusader? When did they lose their hero power?
But anyway, with the new 2 drops that are coming with TGT I don't think Piloted Shredder is going to be nearly as auto-include as it currently is (although it might take a while for it to die down) due to cards like Darnassus AspirantLance BearerArgent Watchman etc. due to their downsides.
lol if a druid spends there turn 5 using their hero power you are happy.
And no just because of a 1/80+ chance will not make one of the best cards less auto include.
I'm confused by the Druid comment, too. Haha I agree there's going to be a lot of changes coming to the Shredder; although I'm not sure that there are enough bad 2-drops to psudeo-nerf it.
If druid spends 2 mana and their first body on a shredder to kill a 3 drop that is good. When would a druid want to hero power on the turn they have the apex of their curve.
I'm confused by the Druid comment, too. Haha I agree there's going to be a lot of changes coming to the Shredder; although I'm not sure that there are enough bad 2-drops to psudeo-nerf it.
If druid spends 2 mana and their first body on a shredder to kill a 3 drop that is good. When would a druid want to hero power on the turn they have the apex of their curve.
Ahh-- I was being a little less specific with it. (Or probably more so. Haha) You're totally right about that case, though. Specifically, as a response on turn 5 the hero power is a terrible loss of tempo, but in general (disregarding that specific order of play), if the Druid can ever fit it in, the Crusader gets far less value and becomes pretty bad late game.
Basically, all I'm saying is that the Crusader is probably only good on curve against Druids. I would suspect hero powers and swipes cause big problems later.
Ahh-- I was being a little less specific with it. (Or probably more so. Haha) You're totally right about that case, though. Specifically, as a response on turn 5 the hero power is a terrible loss of tempo, but in general (disregarding that specific order of play), if the Druid can ever fit it in, the Crusader gets far less value and becomes pretty bad late game.
Basically, all I'm saying is that the Crusader is probably only good on curve against Druids. I would suspect hero powers and swipes cause big problems later.
Well your original post was about a 3 drop that protectively contests shredder.
Ahh-- I was being a little less specific with it. (Or probably more so. Haha) You're totally right about that case, though. Specifically, as a response on turn 5 the hero power is a terrible loss of tempo, but in general (disregarding that specific order of play), if the Druid can ever fit it in, the Crusader gets far less value and becomes pretty bad late game.
Basically, all I'm saying is that the Crusader is probably only good on curve against Druids. I would suspect hero powers and swipes cause big problems later.
Well your original post was about a 3 drop that protectively contests shredder.
I was curious if other people felt it might be viable in general since it contests Shredder evenly in most cases-- despite the fact its weak on other turns.
Besides, since it trades evenly, if you break the shredder with the divine shield on turn 4 and don't remove the 2-drop, the Druid could naturally trade for the Crusader and carry on playing their 5-drop without much/any tempo loss.
Druids cant deal with Scarlet Crusader? When did they lose their hero power?
But anyway, with the new 2 drops that are coming with TGT I don't think Piloted Shredder is going to be nearly as auto-include as it currently is (although it might take a while for it to die down) due to cards like Darnassus AspirantLance BearerArgent Watchman etc. due to their downsides.
lol if a druid spends there turn 5 using their hero power you are happy.
And no just because of a 1/80+ chance will not make one of the best cards less auto include.
Any nerf, whether it be direct or indirect, makes a card less auto-include. That 1/80 chance of getting a Darnassus Aspirant and losing a mana crystal for the rest of the game is more than enough to turn people off to the idea of auto-including Piloted Shredder. In a game like Hearthstone those odds make or break close games. And even if they dont get the aspirant, anything to dilute the pool of average to good 2 drops that can come from shredder makes it inherently worse as a card that is RNG based. The whole point of shredder is to be sticky, if the 2 drop is easily removed by common means such as hero power/cheap removal, it is worse than if you had gotten a card that can withstand such removal, obviously.
And I didnt say we wouldnt be happy that they used their Hero Power to remove it, you said they didnt have a way to remove it, I simply corrected you.
I think that Scarlet crusader would not be that good because if you look at the decks that run shredder they have the ability to pop the shield and kill it like hunter, but a lot of decks might not be able to deal with it like druid. I would try it. What deck were you thinking about putting it in?
Druids cant deal with Scarlet Crusader? When did they lose their hero power?
But anyway, with the new 2 drops that are coming with TGT I don't think Piloted Shredder is going to be nearly as auto-include as it currently is (although it might take a while for it to die down) due to cards like Darnassus AspirantLance BearerArgent Watchman etc. due to their downsides.
Darnassus Aspirant, Lance Bearer sucks but so does Novice Engineer, Captain's Parrot and if you have board control then Doomsayer and Explosive Sheep screws you even harder. Argent Watchman isn't even that bad because after turn 4 using hero power is not as bad as earlier turns. Even if it is bad, that's only a small portion of RNG, and piloted shredder remains one of the best 4 drops if not the best.
As I said, I was only listing the bad 2 drops that we know are coming with TGT. And yes there are plenty of bad cards that are already in the game that compromise shredder's value and I know that most of the time shredder is still worth it, I am simply stating that the more "bad" 2 drops that get released (due to them consisting mostly of battlecry effects, or them having negative deathrattles/effects, etc.) the worse Shredder becomes. The dream is for Shredder to die and give you a Millhouse because you actually get a minion with higher stat value than the original, or that you get Doomsayer when behind on board control, but the more cards that are added to the potential outcome, the less of a chance that has of happening.
Any nerf, whether it be direct or indirect, makes a card less auto-include. That 1/80 chance of getting a Darnassus Aspirant and losing a mana crystal for the rest of the game is more than enough to turn people off to the idea of auto-including Piloted Shredder. In a game like Hearthstone those odds make or break close games. And even if they dont get the aspirant, anything to dilute the pool of average to good 2 drops that can come from shredder makes it inherently worse as a card that is RNG based. The whole point of shredder is to be sticky, if the 2 drop is easily removed by common means such as hero power/cheap removal, it is worse than if you had gotten a card that can withstand such removal, obviously.
And I didnt say we wouldnt be happy that they used their Hero Power to remove it, you said they didnt have a way to remove it, I simply corrected you.
Okay. People will not say hmm, lets not run the best 4 mana card in the game because there is a 1/80 chance when I play it it will still have above average stats but I might destroy a mana crystal. I understand that this card makes shredder slightly worse but if you think it will see less play you are wrong.
Also I really couldnt care less about formalities. You clearly have no relevant point in your posts nor do you anything useful to say about the OT.
Okay. People will not say hmm, lets not run the best 4 mana card in the game because there is a 1/80 chance when I play it it will still have above average stats but I might destroy a mana crystal. I understand that this card makes shredder slightly worse but if you think it will see less play you are wrong.
Also I really couldnt care less about formalities. You clearly have no relevant point in your posts nor do you anything useful to say about the OT.
Haha I gotta agree with Flood-- pretty much spot on for me. We're a bit off topic and also talking up our bums about statistics a bit incorrectly since what matters from the shredder isn't the possible good/bad outlier results, but the average or expected result... I mean... right? And if we add both bad and good/average cards to the card pool, we don't expect the average to shift far from where it stands now, we only expect at worst higher variance/deviation.
Regardless: I'm still interested in 3-drops in relation to Shredder and in particular Scarlet Crusader. Haha
Since the first person introduced this idea of a "pseudo nerf" to Piloted Shredder due to a couple 2-drops which are not helpful without their battlecry, all the armchair game theory experts with no idea of probability or statistics have jumped onto the bandwagon.
It's about the probability of a good outcome. There are about 4 cards which vary between bad and situationally bad to "have for free" - that is 1/20th of the available outcomes. If 19 times out of 20 you're ahead, you're going to play the card. You would need a release to introduce 10+ really bad outcomes before people would stop considering the Shredder as the bet 4-drop option.
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How interesting
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I think it's no surprise to anyone that Piloted Shredder is one of the most, if not the most, popular 4-drop. And it's pretty difficult to remove... so I got to thinking. What 3-drop minions can actually beat a Shredder by themselves (without being combo'd with other cards, like perhaps Blackwing Technician)? And especially proactively?
I'd be interested to hear what people think about Scarlet Crusader in this case. It is weak to some pretty obnoxious things like hero powers or Flamewaker, but uncontested it trades evenly with Shredder without any help (as long as the Shredder doesn't drop minions with 4 health or cards like Shielded Minibot and Haunted Creeper)
Would that be enough to make Crusader a viable card? I think at least for players without lots of cards, it could. The only other 3-drop I can think of off hand that can beat a Shredder by itself is Aldor Peacekeeper... but you wouldn't play that on curve like I'm thinking about anyway.
I think that Scarlet crusader would not be that good because if you look at the decks that run shredder they have the ability to pop the shield and kill it like hunter, but a lot of decks might not be able to deal with it like druid. I would try it. What deck were you thinking about putting it in?
Hmm... you think Hunter would be good against it? Haunted Creeper is obviously a nightmare for it and some lucky knife juggles with Unleash the Hounds could be a problem, but otherwise it would usually go 2-for-1 still, wouldn't it? I would've thought Druid would be good against it considering its hero power and cards like Swipe or even Wrath for card draw.
I am mostly thinking of cheap free-to-play decks or perhaps Shaman (since it kind of lacks in 3-drops minus mech synergy) and Zoolock-- although that's pretty retro now. Maybe even aggro Paladin, although it's probably too slow compared to Wolf rider.
Druids cant deal with Scarlet Crusader? When did they lose their hero power?
But anyway, with the new 2 drops that are coming with TGT I don't think Piloted Shredder is going to be nearly as auto-include as it currently is (although it might take a while for it to die down) due to cards like Darnassus Aspirant Lance Bearer Argent Watchman etc. due to their downsides.
There once was a man from Nantucket...
I find the best 3 drop to deal with shredder is actually flying machine. Turn 3 flying machine into turn 4 velen + inner fire allows you to trade fairly evenly with the shredder. Also if you can find a way to get divine shield from a previous thoughtsteal the value is even better!
Darnassus Aspirant, Lance Bearer sucks but so does Novice Engineer, Captain's Parrot and if you have board control then Doomsayer and Explosive Sheep screws you even harder. Argent Watchman isn't even that bad because after turn 4 using hero power is not as bad as earlier turns. Even if it is bad, that's only a small portion of RNG, and piloted shredder remains one of the best 4 drops if not the best.
I hate RNG
I'm confused by the Druid comment, too. Haha
I agree there's going to be a lot of changes coming to the Shredder; although I'm not sure that there are enough bad 2-drops to psudeo-nerf it.
Hmmm, Tinkmaster Overspark, but, it would have to be reactive.
Galavant Animation
lol if a druid spends there turn 5 using their hero power you are happy.
And no just because of a 1/80+ chance will not make one of the best cards less auto include.
If druid spends 2 mana and their first body on a shredder to kill a 3 drop that is good. When would a druid want to hero power on the turn they have the apex of their curve.
Ahh-- I was being a little less specific with it. (Or probably more so. Haha) You're totally right about that case, though.
Specifically, as a response on turn 5 the hero power is a terrible loss of tempo, but in general (disregarding that specific order of play), if the Druid can ever fit it in, the Crusader gets far less value and becomes pretty bad late game.
Basically, all I'm saying is that the Crusader is probably only good on curve against Druids. I would suspect hero powers and swipes cause big problems later.
Well your original post was about a 3 drop that protectively contests shredder.
I was curious if other people felt it might be viable in general since it contests Shredder evenly in most cases-- despite the fact its weak on other turns.
Besides, since it trades evenly, if you break the shredder with the divine shield on turn 4 and don't remove the 2-drop, the Druid could naturally trade for the Crusader and carry on playing their 5-drop without much/any tempo loss.
Any nerf, whether it be direct or indirect, makes a card less auto-include. That 1/80 chance of getting a Darnassus Aspirant and losing a mana crystal for the rest of the game is more than enough to turn people off to the idea of auto-including Piloted Shredder. In a game like Hearthstone those odds make or break close games. And even if they dont get the aspirant, anything to dilute the pool of average to good 2 drops that can come from shredder makes it inherently worse as a card that is RNG based. The whole point of shredder is to be sticky, if the 2 drop is easily removed by common means such as hero power/cheap removal, it is worse than if you had gotten a card that can withstand such removal, obviously.
And I didnt say we wouldnt be happy that they used their Hero Power to remove it, you said they didnt have a way to remove it, I simply corrected you.
There once was a man from Nantucket...
As I said, I was only listing the bad 2 drops that we know are coming with TGT. And yes there are plenty of bad cards that are already in the game that compromise shredder's value and I know that most of the time shredder is still worth it, I am simply stating that the more "bad" 2 drops that get released (due to them consisting mostly of battlecry effects, or them having negative deathrattles/effects, etc.) the worse Shredder becomes. The dream is for Shredder to die and give you a Millhouse because you actually get a minion with higher stat value than the original, or that you get Doomsayer when behind on board control, but the more cards that are added to the potential outcome, the less of a chance that has of happening.
There once was a man from Nantucket...
Okay. People will not say hmm, lets not run the best 4 mana card in the game because there is a 1/80 chance when I play it it will still have above average stats but I might destroy a mana crystal. I understand that this card makes shredder slightly worse but if you think it will see less play you are wrong.
Also I really couldnt care less about formalities. You clearly have no relevant point in your posts nor do you anything useful to say about the OT.
Funny fact is, if a piloted shredder spawns a 1/2, it only makes the card balanced as opposed to OP. Even a 2/2 is very good value.
Haha I gotta agree with Flood-- pretty much spot on for me.
We're a bit off topic and also talking up our bums about statistics a bit incorrectly since what matters from the shredder isn't the possible good/bad outlier results, but the average or expected result... I mean... right? And if we add both bad and good/average cards to the card pool, we don't expect the average to shift far from where it stands now, we only expect at worst higher variance/deviation.
Regardless: I'm still interested in 3-drops in relation to Shredder and in particular Scarlet Crusader. Haha
Since the first person introduced this idea of a "pseudo nerf" to Piloted Shredder due to a couple 2-drops which are not helpful without their battlecry, all the armchair game theory experts with no idea of probability or statistics have jumped onto the bandwagon.
It's about the probability of a good outcome. There are about 4 cards which vary between bad and situationally bad to "have for free" - that is 1/20th of the available outcomes. If 19 times out of 20 you're ahead, you're going to play the card. You would need a release to introduce 10+ really bad outcomes before people would stop considering the Shredder as the bet 4-drop option.
How interesting